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Post by James Kay on Jan 18, 2016 19:48:31 GMT
Sorry about leaving the last one up so long.
The updated trade:
78 Julius Randle $2,859,200 $2,982,400 $3,781,683 $5,044,765
75 Ronnie Brewer $2,000,000
73 Dorell Wright $2,000,000
72 Anthony Tolliver $2,000,000
71 Quincy Acy $2,000,000
2016 CHA 2nd Round Pick
for
71 Otto Porter $2,409,800 $2,498,396 $2,570,189
77 Wilson Chandler $7,400,000
CHA salary before trade: 62,808,382
CHA salary after trade: 61,758,982
CHI salary before trade: 90,349,820
CHI salary after trade: 91,399,220
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jan 18, 2016 20:20:52 GMT
Ian Noble - Just so I can confirm for myself and for the purposes of this trade too - We're still not making people wait any length of time before trading Free Agents they sign in-season? We still can't trade off-season acquisitions, but I know James signed Ronnie and I think Dorell pretty recently, and he can trade them already. Just want to know. If there's no rule yet, then there's no rule yet. But, seems inconsistent. Maybe a 1-month waiting period on In-Season FA signings after this trade would be good?
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jan 18, 2016 20:22:21 GMT
ADDITION - Acy and Tolliver were on his roster for a whole half hour before being traded. Just feels funny considering the length of time we have to wait to trade OSFA's. Either shorten that one or add a limit to in-season. Something needs done, I think.
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Post by Ian Noble on Jan 18, 2016 20:43:28 GMT
Ian Noble - Just so I can confirm for myself and for the purposes of this trade too - We're still not making people wait any length of time before trading Free Agents they sign in-season? We still can't trade off-season acquisitions, but I know James signed Ronnie and I think Dorell pretty recently, and he can trade them already. Just want to know. If there's no rule yet, then there's no rule yet. But, seems inconsistent. Maybe a 1-month waiting period on In-Season FA signings after this trade would be good? There's no rule yet but maybe there should be, it does make stupid stuff like this possible. |
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Post by James Kay on Jan 18, 2016 22:11:39 GMT
ADDITION - Acy and Tolliver were on his roster for a whole half hour before being traded. Just feels funny considering the length of time we have to wait to trade OSFA's. Either shorten that one or add a limit to in-season. Something needs done, I think. Agreed. I did message Ian for this explicit purpose to make sure this was allowed though. |
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Post by Bryan Colangelo on Jan 18, 2016 23:03:44 GMT
No rule, no problem.
I accept.
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CHA-CHI
Jan 19, 2016 2:00:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by Walt Frazier on Jan 19, 2016 2:00:58 GMT
Alright, accept then.
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CHA-CHI
Jan 19, 2016 2:39:59 GMT
via mobile
Post by Shane Battier on Jan 19, 2016 2:39:59 GMT
I accept. Both Noah and Lee are on the decline, so it's good to acquire a young big prospect. He's a bit undersized in his position and has a shorter wingspan compared to other big men but I love his energy and intensity. He just needs to learn how to play with more control then he'll be great.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 19, 2016 4:47:15 GMT
Ian Noble - Just so I can confirm for myself and for the purposes of this trade too - We're still not making people wait any length of time before trading Free Agents they sign in-season? We still can't trade off-season acquisitions, but I know James signed Ronnie and I think Dorell pretty recently, and he can trade them already. Just want to know. If there's no rule yet, then there's no rule yet. But, seems inconsistent. Maybe a 1-month waiting period on In-Season FA signings after this trade would be good? There's no rule yet but maybe there should be, it does make stupid stuff like this possible. Yeah, let me just use my 5 million in in-season MLE to sign one guy to a 5 million dollar deal, and trade him away with a pick for something of value. This has happened every year I've been here, I don't see why we change it now, even though it is probably one of the biggest oversights when it comes to contracts. Every time someone does it, someone mentions that they were just signed, we all go "hey that seems wrong" then we turn around and think that if they can do it, so can I, and we all just continue about our business. James is trading Randle and the pick for Chandler and Porter. The other 4 can basically be discarded since they were of no value to him this season and therefore there is no loss for James on them on his end. At the end of the day, I still think Randle is 10 times better than Porter will ever be. Wilson Chandler is the most Wilson Chandler-ish type player in the league. He is looked over and just a salary piece in most trades, swapped around 4 times a season. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jan 19, 2016 4:56:59 GMT
Randle's upside is definitely higher, though a much lower floor IMO.
Porter and Chandler may not be "special" players but you need those types sometimes, and especially with James' roster construction, sometimes you have to pull the trigger and maybe lose some potential to make a better TEAM.
I don't think there's enough here to come close to rejecting, so it was an easy accept. But, I see why both do it, and could see people really favoring the Randle side.
Just know there's a chance Randle becomes some lesser version of Zbo / Blake mixed with some high-potential flame-out like, jeez I don't know honestly. Tyrus Thomas, Adam Morrison, Mike Sweetney! haha just the general thought of a high-pick, high upside guy but with a really low floor. I wish the kid well, and I'm not comparing any of these players' games, just the concept of high-ish potential with bust potential too.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jan 19, 2016 4:58:23 GMT
This has happened every year I've been here, I don't see why we change it now, even though it is probably one of the biggest oversights when it comes to contracts. Because we can do better. We could wait until next year to put it in I suppose out of "fairness", although rules like the "Josh Barber Rule" were input immediately. But, we can do better. Why should we NOT do better? |
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Post by James Kay on Jan 19, 2016 5:36:16 GMT
Just my two cents - I really like Otto. I don't think statements like "Randle is 10 times better than Porter will ever be" are .. at all accurate. Porter is only a year older than Randle... picked third in the 2014 draft. He's spent a decent amount of his early career injured, but seems to be carving a nice role for himself on the wing in WAS IRL. I think Randle technically has a "higher ceiling" but why does everyone say that exactly? He plays with a lot of intensity and heart but his height and lack of a shot don't really resonate with me. I don't think his ceiling even includes great defense. Porter's defense is already solid. Otto has basicalyl already proven himself to be, at worst, a serviceable wing - with a lot more potential. Randle is shooting 40% from the floor as a big man. Granted, he's working out kinks in his shot but cmon. He'd need to be contributing Nerlens-level defense to be worthy of a spot. I like Porter a lot more. Plus, Chandlers alright too  |
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 30, 2024 21:51:23 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 6:00:20 GMT
I'm just going to come in here and say that I like Randle but those of you who think he has more upside than Porter are fucking nuts.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 19, 2016 6:04:49 GMT
Because we can do better. We could wait until next year to put it in I suppose out of "fairness", although rules like the "Josh Barber Rule" were input immediately. But, we can do better. Why should we NOT do better? yeah yeah, keep shouting. soon as this thread goes in to accepted trades, no one will think twice about it. IMO, there should be a rule, if we have to wait appx 45 days for OSFA to be traded, we should have to wait the same amount of time for in-season free agents. (45 Days = October 31st NBA Opening Day thru December 15th ish) Makes sense, still allows us to trade players we sign, but IRL you can't just sign a guy and then trade him. No player would want to sign a deal with a team if they knowingly would be traded. My biggest knock against this trade is that it adds depth to a contending team that he would not be able to otherwise have. He is over the cap and may or may not have used his MLE, thus he wouldn't be able to sign these guys. Gives Chicago an advantage. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 19, 2016 6:08:47 GMT
I'm just going to come in here and say that I like Randle but those of you who think he has more upside than Porter are fucking nuts. Have you ever seen Otto Porter shoot a basketball? You haven't? Ok, that explains your opinion then. Randle's upside is a more athletic version of Z-Bo, with a possibility to take defenders off the dribble and an actual high post game and possible mid-range shot. Otto Porter's upside is what? Present Day Giannis? Maybe a poor mans Shawn Marion? The kid cannot shoot a basketball. He makes his living on back door cuts and pick and roll drives. He plays good defense, and he's an above average passer. But the whole inability to shoot thing hurts him. And it isn't like he just can't shoot like Elfrid Payton can't shoot. Otto Porter can't shoot because of his technique and form, and that won't change. He shoots like a 12 year old kid who can't get the ball to the rim. He shoots like how Steph Curry shot in the 8th grade. |
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Nov 30, 2024 21:51:23 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 6:10:08 GMT
yeah yeah, keep shouting. soon as this thread goes in to accepted trades, no one will think twice about it. IMO, there should be a rule, if we have to wait appx 45 days for OSFA to be traded, we should have to wait the same amount of time for in-season free agents. (45 Days = October 31st NBA Opening Day thru December 15th ish) Makes sense, still allows us to trade players we sign, but IRL you can't just sign a guy and then trade him. No player would want to sign a deal with a team if they knowingly would be traded. My biggest knock against this trade is that it adds depth to a contending team that he would not be able to otherwise have. He is over the cap and may or may not have used his MLE, thus he wouldn't be able to sign these guys. Gives Chicago an advantage. In 720 we have a rule where any player signed during in season free agency has to remain on your team for 3 months. It stops this ^ and it stops people continually signing and cutting players to acquire dead money to do what James just did here. |
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Post by Danny Longley on Jan 19, 2016 6:21:16 GMT
Accept. Not the first time pseudo sign-and-trade has happened, though I think this is the first time that the pieces S&T'ed make up majority of the salary in the deal. Guess we never really bothered to bring it up since the players involved were often minimums or <70s.
We probably should have a rule up, a month or 3 months, whatever is closest to the actual rule if there is one.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 19, 2016 6:25:56 GMT
Just my two cents - I really like Otto. I don't think statements like "Randle is 10 times better than Porter will ever be" are .. at all accurate. Porter is only a year older than Randle... picked third in the 2014 draft. He's spent a decent amount of his early career injured, but seems to be carving a nice role for himself on the wing in WAS IRL. I think Randle technically has a "higher ceiling" but why does everyone say that exactly? He plays with a lot of intensity and heart but his height and lack of a shot don't really resonate with me. I don't think his ceiling even includes great defense. Porter's defense is already solid. Otto has basicalyl already proven himself to be, at worst, a serviceable wing - with a lot more potential. Randle is shooting 40% from the floor as a big man. Granted, he's working out kinks in his shot but cmon. He'd need to be contributing Nerlens-level defense to be worthy of a spot. I like Porter a lot more. Plus, Chandlers alright too As a once Professional Arm Chair Collegiate NCAA Basketball Scout, I can say that my evaluations on the players differ. Otto Porter is probably near, or 1 step away from his ceiling. Maybe he adds another 2-3 points on his PPG average, and another assist, but I think this is as good as he gets. He has terrible form and technique on his shot. And it has actually improved since college. His release is so slow. I don't think he can ever realistically create some space with a crossover and get off a "quick" shot, not Steph Curry quick, but average quick for an NBA wing. He is a gifted passer, very long, reminds me of a faster kyle anderson athletically, I'd say that is his best comp, weird that anderson was a year after him, but that's who I think he reminds me of, and I think if he were in the 2014 draft, he would have been selected late, just as Anderson was. Yes Porter was taken a year before Randle, and played 2 years in college and is 22, and Randle is 21. But Randle just turned 21 at the end of November and Porter turns 23 in the beginning of June. Porter is an estimated 1 year and 7 months older than Randle, for whatever it is worth. Now Randle is a weird specimen. He came in to college the number 1 prospect in the country, and for good reason. However, he was out-shined at Kentucky because, in my opinion, the offense Cal wanted to run with all of the great players he had. It left Randle cemented in to the high post. He has a good jump shot. He doesn't show case it enough. It was one of his biggest strengths coming in to college. He has a good high post game, and has the advantage of being left handed, whatever that is worth. Randle is averaging nearly a double double in what is in all reality his first year in the league on the worst team in the league not named the Philadelphia Seventy Sixers. He has really good athletic ability for a big. He isn't the prototypical power forward, meaning he isn't 6'10 with long arms, his wingspan isn't great. But, what he lacks in size he makes up for in grit. While at Georgetown, I watched Porter get bounced in the first round as a 3 seed and him nonchalantly walking around afterwards, not exactly caring. Where as Randle, I never saw anything like that. Randle has had foot problems in his career. Porter has had injuries as well. Randle is capable of being a number 1 option. A solid post player, both low and high, with a decent jump shot. He has a great "knack" for rebounding given his size. Porter is already a solid wing, but would he be putting up 15, 6, and 3, on the Lakers? I don't think he would. And I think Randle would be performing even better than nearly a double double on the Wizards. Who is the better player right now? Otto Porter. Who COULD be the better player 5 years from now? Julius Randle. My opinion about this is: if both continue to develop and realize their potential, Randle will be a better player, by a wide margin. What are the odds though? I think Porter is near his ceiling playing on a good team with great guards and a decent post presence. It is a lot easier to get shots off when you have Wall and Beal versus Russell and Clarkson and Nick Young. |
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Post by Alex English on Jan 19, 2016 6:47:20 GMT
Have you ever seen Otto Porter shoot a basketball? You haven't? Ok, that explains your opinion then. Randle's upside is a more athletic version of Z-Bo, with a possibility to take defenders off the dribble and an actual high post game and possible mid-range shot. Otto Porter's upside is what? Present Day Giannis? Maybe a poor mans Shawn Marion? The kid cannot shoot a basketball. He makes his living on back door cuts and pick and roll drives. He plays good defense, and he's an above average passer. But the whole inability to shoot thing hurts him. And it isn't like he just can't shoot like Elfrid Payton can't shoot. Otto Porter can't shoot because of his technique and form, and that won't change. He shoots like a 12 year old kid who can't get the ball to the rim. He shoots like how Steph Curry shot in the 8th grade. What are you talking about? Porter's shot is fine. Last two years he's been shooting 32.3% from three. That's not amazing, but it's okay. At just 22 years old he has plenty of room to become a solid shooter. I'd still rather have Randle than Porter, but your comment made me go to youtube to take a good look at Porter's shot, and there's nothing to see, his form is fine, better than Elfrid Payton's form too. |
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Post by Alex English on Jan 19, 2016 6:50:24 GMT
I accept this version of the trade too.
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Post by JR Wiles on Jan 19, 2016 8:12:00 GMT
I'm just going to come in here and say that I like Randle but those of you who think he has more upside than Porter are fucking nuts. Porter is better and Will be the best player... |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 19, 2016 8:37:35 GMT
Have you ever seen Otto Porter shoot a basketball? You haven't? Ok, that explains your opinion then. Randle's upside is a more athletic version of Z-Bo, with a possibility to take defenders off the dribble and an actual high post game and possible mid-range shot. Otto Porter's upside is what? Present Day Giannis? Maybe a poor mans Shawn Marion? The kid cannot shoot a basketball. He makes his living on back door cuts and pick and roll drives. He plays good defense, and he's an above average passer. But the whole inability to shoot thing hurts him. And it isn't like he just can't shoot like Elfrid Payton can't shoot. Otto Porter can't shoot because of his technique and form, and that won't change. He shoots like a 12 year old kid who can't get the ball to the rim. He shoots like how Steph Curry shot in the 8th grade. What are you talking about? Porter's shot is fine. Last two years he's been shooting 32.3% from three. That's not amazing, but it's okay. At just 22 years old he has plenty of room to become a solid shooter. I'd still rather have Randle than Porter, but your comment made me go to youtube to take a good look at Porter's shot, and there's nothing to see, his form is fine, better than Elfrid Payton's form too. So what you are saying is that if you had a son and had to teach him to shoot a basketball, you would teach him this? Watch the second highlight, when its the fast break and he's trailing and he catches it for the open look at the 3. He catches it chest/shoulder high, then lowers the ball down to his waist/crotch and brings it up and shoots it. It would be different if it were just in this video, but it is in every video, that's how he shoots. How is he supposed to hit a step back 3 with minimal room like that? How does he come off a screen without a lot of space and rise up and get the shot off? And that is just the loading motion... His right elbow is flared out so far, compared to how a normal NBA player shoots the ball. Basketball is great in that a pro-player's shot varies only slightly from one player to the next. There is a certain fundamental technique in to how to shoot a ball. The elbow joint should be at a near perfect right angle at release, where as Porter's is off more than a desirable amount. Next you have the reason for this, his elbow is flared out to the right, which makes his angle of release roughly 45 degrees. This, in turn, makes it so the ball is closer to being above his head, or right in front of his eyes, rather than directly above his shoulder. I like this video better, for music alone, it is superior. But you can see his shooting motion better. Granted this is from the beginning of his rookie year. You can see that his release point is almost where that of a left hander's shot would be. He is "slinging" it more so than shooting it. In all reality, it isn't a problem until it becomes a problem. But this was a huge question mark coming in to the league, and even more so in college. In college it was a lot worse. The hitch is the real problem, he will always have a hard time with his slow release. Having the hitch isn't a big deal, considering bringing the ball up from your waist to your shooting position is something that is common in every player. But, his inability to catch it chest high and go up from there is what is concerning, it just makes his release slow which is a problem coming off of screens etc. which is important for a wing. Also, the position or route he in which he takes to bring the ball up is another thing. In most of the videos, he is bringing it up straight in front of him, which can be easy for a defender to get a hand in there, most players bring it up from their hip, not their ball sack. I think Payton's shot is more so just his inability to feel his range. He grew a shit ton and got stronger in college, which changes how much force you need to apply to the ball. Plus he played at ULL, a small ass school down south against sub par competition, he really didn't have the need to shoot the ball when he could get to the basket at will. His Free Throws is a matter of terrible follow through and I think some of that carries over to his jumper. Both of them aren't players I'd tell my kid to model their shot after, but like I said earlier, it isn't a problem till it becomes a problem. And if you're getting paid millions of dollars to do something, I would think you'd work your ass off to improve it. Porter is the better player now, this is his 3rd year in the league. The year where a player will make his biggest jump, in terms of if a guy on a rookie deal can stick around or not. This is Randle's first full season. I'm still taking Randle long term. I'm short on Porter and I think we will see that happen, either when Wall and Beal leave or get hurt or when Durant comes in and Porter is sent to OKC in the sign and trade. |
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Jan 19, 2016 8:38:02 GMT
yeah yeah, keep shouting. soon as this thread goes in to accepted trades, no one will think twice about it. IMO, there should be a rule, if we have to wait appx 45 days for OSFA to be traded, we should have to wait the same amount of time for in-season free agents. (45 Days = October 31st NBA Opening Day thru December 15th ish) Makes sense, still allows us to trade players we sign, but IRL you can't just sign a guy and then trade him. No player would want to sign a deal with a team if they knowingly would be traded. My biggest knock against this trade is that it adds depth to a contending team that he would not be able to otherwise have. He is over the cap and may or may not have used his MLE, thus he wouldn't be able to sign these guys. Gives Chicago an advantage. Seriously Charles, everyone of us are in fault here. This is already the fifth season an yet we still don't have a rule about that. So, stop quoting someone and instead say it generally. You have the same amount of fault as Walt and everyone else. |
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Post by Alex English on Jan 19, 2016 17:04:06 GMT
So what you are saying is that if you had a son and had to teach him to shoot a basketball, you would teach him this? Yea, that's not what I said. There is nothing broken about his shot though, he has a dip in his catch and shoot motion, but so does almost everyone. Very few people actually catch and only go up from that point. He does release it farther to the left than most right handed shooters, but again, whatever. His release is fluid and has no herky jerky movements. That's the most important thing. Shit, if Shawn Marion can be a solid shooter when his release point is from his chest, then Otto Porter is fine. Textbook form doesn't really even exist. Even Ray "All announcers say I have perfect form" Allen actually has a slightly crooked elbow and doesn't fully extend his arm on his release. He did okay though. Steph Curry as well, who will be the greatest shooter of all time, releases the ball at the bottom of his jump instead of the top, and it gives kind of a flicking shot release. I think Kyle Korver and Klay Thompson have the closest thing to textbook form I've seen. It's a good asset, but so long as a player has a fluid release and the ball comes out straight every time, then it doesn't matter how they shoot. They can even shoot granny shots like Rick Barry. |
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Post by Ian Noble on Jan 19, 2016 18:56:52 GMT
I accept
Trade passed.
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