MIN/DAL

[Walt Frazier]

Minnesota Timberwolves Trade:
79 Stephen Jackson $9,256,500 $10,059,750
76 Jerryd Bayless $3,042,280 $4,164,882
74 Kevin Seraphin $1,680,360 $1,797,600 $2,761,114 $3,898,692

Total: $13,979,140


Dallas Mavericks Trade:
83 Jason Terry $10,658,000
78 Spencer Hawes $4,051,024
2012 1st Round Pick (Dallas)
2012 2nd Round Pick (Phoenix)

Total: $14,709,024

I easily have the <1,000,000 in cap space to take this on, so no problem there.

I give up a player I LOVE in Seraphin, a guy with high upside still in Bayless, and a really solid player in Jackson, who, while paid a lot, still got interest from around the league, and by next year, he's a useful expiring contract at worst.

I get Terry and Hawes, two guys to upgrade my bench in a huge way or plug into my starting lineup...but both expire. If I sign both next year, any cap I clear next year with this trade pretty much disappears...we'll see. I'll remain active in the trade market, I think these pieces are movable, and I see some interesting opportunities out there. I definitely like finally getting some picks in a trade...although neither pick should be particularly great, it is still in a deep class, so maybe I get lucky and get someone I like!

[Danny Longley]

Mavs accept. This gives me two prospects that can also contribute immediately in Bayless and Seraphin. The fact that both Jackson and Bayless are both on two year deals benefits me greatly in the long run, letting me burn cap after they expire on the guys i'd like to sign instead of a Terry dilemma following this season.

Jackson had a down year numbers-wise, but I think he can still be on par with Terry. So long as he's under Popovich, I think I can expect him to stay sane throughout his contract. Bayless was actually beginning to string together some solid games before he went down to injury, I intend to play him either at the 2 down the line or have him stay at the 1 depending on if I get a wing.

Kevin Seraphin is a guy I just really want on my team, When the man got playing time he produced and I believe he could be due for a boost down the line.

TL;DR, better for me cap-wise, get solid talent and depth. Nice negotiating with you Minny .

Projected Starting 5
C - Amir Johnson
PF - Dirk Nowitzki
SF - Stephen Jackson
SG - Marshon Brooks
PG - Mario Chalmers

Jerryd will immediately shift to SG while Kevin will shift to C.

Side Note - mad love for Jerryd's game, one of my favorite guys to trade for in 2k12. Our own Philadelphia 76ers has been on the wrong end of a few scoring runs by this guy when we play 2k lol.

[Allen Iverson]

lol. This is not 2k12. ;D But I have to say, a nice pickup in Seraphin.

[Walt Frazier]

Yea, I tried VERY hard to NOT let Seraphin go...he wouldn't take SJax basically, w/o getting Seraphin or Hickson...I liked this one a little better moving Bayless as well. I like the kid but his contract is semi-big for what he's actually proven thus far.

[Aubrey Graham]

I accept, MIN clears up some cap and Dallas finally gets a SF so he doesn't have to rely on playing Brooks there.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

This is a bad trade for Dallas. I accept.

[Danny Longley]

Jun 14, 2012 23:12:14 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

This is a bad trade for Dallas. I accept.

Matter of opinion I guess. Can't say I think highly of your trade with Memphis either .

Anyway, since Walt is TC, would this be good to go?

[Ian Noble]

In my opinion this trade is bad enough to reject.

Jason Terry & Spencer Hawes have trade value, which is more than can be said of the three players Minnesota are trading. On top of that Dallas throws in a first rounder?

Sorry guys, I reject. Let's hear what Isiah Thomas has to say.

[Danny Longley]

Kevin Seraphin averaged 15 & 7 through 19 games when he finally took over for Andray Blatche. I don't know if everyone else thinks the same, but Blatche seems pretty much done in Washington. He might have gone along with Young and McGee by the Trade Deadline had they actually found a taker.

Stephen Jackson is basically a taller Jet, He's not gonna be asked to take 16 shots a game anymore in San Antonio, but he's still been productive so far. And under Pop, I at least know he's not going to burn out a la Milwaukee.

Bayless is pretty much the biggest gamble in this trade, he had just started getting 30 minutes a game over Calderon before that freak injury. Before that, his Turnover rate dropped and more and more of his possessions were ending in assists. The Raptors clearly wanted to play him, more than what could be said of the Blazers or Hornets.

TL;DR Bayless is 24, Seraphin is 23. They're putting up numbers, earning PT. Following this trade, 2 Year-Contracts become my equivalent of expirings.

All this and the fact that they match with the contract status of majority of my players. Now, about the above players, I don't really know what you mean by them not having "Trade Value" whatever that means to you.

[Walt Frazier]

Once again, I guess maybe we need to clear up the rules when a CM is involved? It has 2 accepts, most other trades like this pass through with just 2 votes, don't they?


Other than that...

I rejected this trade w/o the pick when we were going back and forth. I like Seraphin that much. I've actually been following him closely since he entered the NBA, and this year he really finally got PT and showed some great moves around the basket, good rebounding, good ability to play Defense and block shots. I tried 2 or 3 different ways to make a trade with Dallas w/o moving Seraphin, and unfortunately for me, this ended up being the most comfortable deal we could find for both sides.

BTW, Jackson is younger than Jet, and he was finally finding his role and his groove again in the playoffs.

Regular season w/ Spurs - 40.5% FG, 30.7% 3pt, 81.5% FT
Playoffs w/ Spurs - 53.5% FG, 60.5% 3pt, 93.3% FT

Guy was just settling back in with a good team, getting himself back in shape, and really clicking with the Spurs again.

Also, both Jet and Hawes expire, which is why the picks are there...b/c I also move young, talented players on multi-year contracts...getting only expiring guys, especially ones who may not want to re-sign with me (Love does what Hawes does more or less...I have Batum and Tyreke at SG/SF with Rubio at PG...doesn't leave a huge role for Terry)...anyway that's why the picks were there.

Plus Dallas is not a bad team, and the pick is one year away, not as many variables.

Anyway, as I mentioned, it has 2 accepts which I thought is all it needed.

[Walt Frazier]

I might be thinking of old/other league rules on that 2 accept thing, looks like we haven't quite had a split decision yet to have to worry about this.

[Lucas Lutkus]

There's been other situation here already where a TC member team trades, gets 2 accepts and the trade is passed, so i think that this trade is passed.

[JP Inawat]

I don't think 2 accepts and 2 rejects should be a pass.. Let's have a backup Trade Committee consisting of 3 members! Wooooo! XD

Just kidding..

(Unless you guys actually like that idea.. lmao ;D)

[Jackie Moon]

I'm going to find it rather funny if this trade goes through, but somehow the BOS-DET trade didn't.

[Walt Frazier]

I find it pretty funny you think this trade is similar to that one. Maybe you guys need to watch and follow basketball, if you don't know who Seraphin is or what Bayless can do (and has done), nor recognize the value of having them locked up on long-term contracts...I dunno

compared to BOS-DET where Det got no longterm value, and actually gave AWAY a pick to get no longterm value...pretty different.

[Jackie Moon]

Dallas ruins their future with this trade. They get rid of expirings AND picks while bringing in Jaxs terrible contract. Baylee's showed very small signs of being anything more than a bench player and Hawes is still arguably a better prospect than Seraphin.

Feel free to try to insult my basketball knowledge. All it does is make you look like a fool.

[Lucas Lutkus]

I don't like Dallas giving up on Terry and a pick for this trade, but it's not anything that make this trade rejectable IMO...

Same thing about the BOS-DET trade

[Marcelo Oliveira]

Jun 14, 2012 23:12:14 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

This is a bad trade for Dallas. I accept.

lol best vote ever

[Walt Frazier]

Jackson is only a 2 year deal, next year he's a valuable expiring contract, at worst.

I didn't have any intention of insulting your knowledge, but to compare Seraphin and Bayless' potential and future to NOTHING (which is what Detroit got longterm), or even LESS THAN NOTHING (he gave away a 1st to get a guaranteed nothing)...I don't see how you connect those dots.

[Danny Longley]

Jun 17, 2012 23:59:13 GMT Jackie Moon said:

Dallas ruins their future with this trade. They get rid of expirings AND picks while bringing in Jaxs terrible contract. Baylee's showed very small signs of being anything more than a bench player and Hawes is still arguably a better prospect than Seraphin.

Feel free to try to insult my basketball knowledge. All it does is make you look like a fool.

I'm not going to pretend to be a basketball scout or anything and say that I'm damn sure that these guys are going to pan out. But I've seen them produce at high levels and think they have the talent to continue doing so.

As for "terrible" contracts, It's 9m a year for 2 years. Has anyone even bothered to look at my salary chart or at least the league database before saying it's terrible for me? I've got a team of <30 year old players, with Anthony Parker and Sundiata Gaines being the only Free Agents come next year if this trade goes through. This actually helps me because had I kept Hawes and Terry, I would likely have eaten most of my cap for year 2, wherein majority of my players are Free Agents. The following year, everyone else under contract should have Bird Rights, so I don't have the same problem.

[Jackie Moon]

Jun 18, 2012 1:35:08 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Jackson is only a 2 year deal, next year he's a valuable expiring contract, at worst.

I didn't have any intention of insulting your knowledge, but to compare Seraphin and Bayless' potential and future to NOTHING (which is what Detroit got longterm), or even LESS THAN NOTHING (he gave away a 1st to get a guaranteed nothing)...I don't see how you connect those dots.

Youre going worst case scenario though. How often does that actually happen?

The TC cracked down on 2014 1st, but these 2012 1st's need to be valued to. You have to keep it even amongst trades. This trade doesn't improve DALs team now, brings more money on the books for next year and strips them of two picks in a VERY deep draft class.

Bayless and Seraphin have potential but it is nothing to bring this kind of return in a trade for them. Jax should not be rated that high at all. I feel like Dallas gives up the best two players in this trade easily.

[thegame]

I really don`t see the big deal in this deal, yes he gives up Terry and Hawes, but that draft pick i s useless. The mavs as long as he keeps Dirk will be a playoff team. Jackson keeps them in the playoff picture this year. Seraphin has shown signs of beeing a legit player, i would take Seraphin over hawes any day of the week just base on potential.

Terry is legit, however I have seen Bayless play, when he plays more than 30 mins he is a 20+ scorer. The man average 11 points in a injury plague season, never really found his grove. Then again he is 24.

Jason Terry is 35, its not like that 83 is going up, this shorten season has been Terry`s worst season in a mav`s uni.

[Jackie Moon]

All trades need to be graded by the same criteria and based on the trades that have/have not gone through recently, this one should be rejected.

[Walt Frazier]

Jun 18, 2012 2:13:36 GMT @thegame said:

I really don`t see the big deal in this deal, yes he gives up Terry and Hawes, but that draft pick is useless. The mavs as long as he keeps Dirk will be a playoff team. Jackson keeps them in the playoff picture this year. Seraphin has shown signs of beeing a legit player, i would take Seraphin over hawes any day of the week just base on potential.

Terry is legit, however I have seen Bayless play, when he plays more than 30 mins he is a 20+ scorer. The man average 11 points in a injury plague season, never really found his grove. Then again he is 24.

Jason Terry is 35, its not like that 83 is going up, this shorten season has been Terry`s worst season in a mav`s uni.

I'd take issue on saying the pick is "useless"...I put a value on all 1sts, BUT we do know it will be a later 1st, and is not equal to either Seraphin or Bayless as a mid 20's pick...

Other than that, yea, agreed.

[thegame]

Lol I apologize for deeming the pick useless, my mentaility is if it's not Davis or a top 5 it's useless.

[Walt Frazier]

Jun 18, 2012 2:05:08 GMT Jackie Moon said:

Jun 18, 2012 1:35:08 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Jackson is only a 2 year deal, next year he's a valuable expiring contract, at worst.

I didn't have any intention of insulting your knowledge, but to compare Seraphin and Bayless' potential and future to NOTHING (which is what Detroit got longterm), or even LESS THAN NOTHING (he gave away a 1st to get a guaranteed nothing)...I don't see how you connect those dots.

Youre going worst case scenario though. How often does that actually happen?

The TC cracked down on 2014 1st, but these 2012 1st's need to be valued to. You have to keep it even amongst trades. This trade doesn't improve DALs team now, brings more money on the books for next year and strips them of two picks in a VERY deep draft class.

Bayless and Seraphin have potential but it is nothing to bring this kind of return in a trade for them. Jax should not be rated that high at all. I feel like Dallas gives up the best two players in this trade easily.

What "worst-case" scenario? He got nothing past rentals for this year...he cleared that 3.5 million but that is worth so little to me it's not worth mentioning. He gave away a 1st to get no long-term value. That's why I rejected.

Obviously I'm not allowed to vote on this trade lol, so I dont' really need to defend the voting...but Bayless and Seraphin are WAY more long-term value than Detroit was getting. Dallas gets long-term value, Detroit didn't...they really aren't very similar.

AND, a 2012 pick that belongs to a contender and is basically going to be in the 20's, guaranteed, is VERY different from a future 1st that belongs to a team who is not a playoff contender and may not be in a couple years either.

They are really quite different deals.

[Joe Dumars]

For me this trade looks like Jackson for Terry (aging good role player for agin good role player), Seraphin for a 2012 First (which is really all you can grade him at at the moment, because he hasnt proven anything) and then Bayless for Hawes and a Second Rounder, which is grossly in Minnesota's favor. Hawes was a starting center on a playoff team, while Bayless was a role player for a bad lottery team. And that doesnt even look into salaries.

Value is exactly the point i was trying to make in my trade. I value things differently than you. You and Dallas may both think each of you is getting the better deal here and thats fine. Clearly we all have different opinions on different players and the value of draft picks, just like real GM's. If everyone had a set ranking of players that was final and those players could never perform above or below those standards then, yea, all trades would be fair, but since its a judgement game, I dont think it should be up to 5 people to determine how people run their teams.

[Walt Frazier]

Joe, I can't do anything for you man. Take it up with Ian I guess? But every sim league I've ever been in has a committee to vote on trades.

Seraphin has proven more than any 2012 mid-20's 1st round pick. By a lot.

So with him being worth more than a late 1st, even in a deep class, even if you value Hawes over Bayless, which is ok, those two even out a bit. A 2nd rounder is no big deal either way IMO. I like getting it but I'd do the trade w/o it.

[Joe Dumars]

Just as a fun little comparison, I ran the numbers on Seraphin and Stiemsma. These are their per 48 numbers (a way a measuring players on an even playing field)
PPG RBG BPG SPG
Stiemsma 10.1 11.1 5.5 2.5
Seraphin 18.4 11.4 3.0 0.7

So yes, seraphin does score more, but I dont need him to. They both get traded for first rounder basically(well according to MIN Serphin goes for more than a first), yet my trade is unfair for me. I realize I get not guarantee of a future with Stiemsma, but I would hope that a player agent would look kindly on the fact that I gave up a future pick to get him, and that would entice him to stay with the Pistons.

[Walt Frazier]

#1 - Seraphin is 22. Steimsma is already 26.

#2 - Seraphin locked in for 4 seasons on a cheap-ass contract. Steimsma is a 1-year that, yes, maybe the PA looks favorably on that, but it's still no guarantee. Just tossing that 1st away like it doesn't mean a thing, which we don't want to happen. Even the Commish of this league said he didn't think that trade should go through, and he was part of the trade!

#3 - This goes with #1 a bit but steimsma has little to no potential left...Seraphin showed so much last season.

I dunno man, vast difference in age and potential, PLUS Seraphin is locked up cheap...Seraphin is worth multiple Steimsma's.