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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Dec 13, 2015 20:11:07 GMT
So I've be waiting to make this post until we had a larger sample size but Dre is a new man this season and has outplayed every other center in the league.
2014-15 Stats:
17.6 PPG (3rd among Centers)
16.4 RPG (Leads NBA)
1.92 SPG (Tied for lead among NBA bigs)
1.6 BPG (13th in NBA)
52.1 FG% (15th in NBA)
24.2 PER (13th in the NBA)
Total rebound %: 25.4% (Leads NBA)
Pistons record: (14-11)
Best Rebounder in NBA, Top 5 Big on D, Along with Reggie Jackson carrying a shitty Pistons team to a playoff spot.
Compared to other centers:
Deandre Jordan (83): 11 PPG, 13.4 RPG, .7 SPG, 2.4 BPG, 66.5 FG% (14-10) 19.6 PER
Brook Lopez (84): 19 PPG, 8.2 RPG, .7 SPG, 2.2 BPG, 48.5 FG% (7-16) 20.9 PER
DeMarcus Cousins (91): 25 PPG, 10.6 RPG, .9 SPG, 1.3 BPG, 42.1 FG% (9-15) 22.6 PER
So its clear Dre is better than Deandre and Brook, and somewhat close to DMC even, since he beats him in every category but PPG.
I know people are pretty conservative but we are over 1/4 of the way through the season and if you watch the games, Dre just straight up dominates dudes.
Current Rating: 81
Recommended Rating: 87
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 20:36:22 GMT
When Andre Drummond contests a shot (40% of the time) he gives up the 13th most points in the league (of centers) He's the 5th worst STARTING center when it comes to giving up FGs when he is the primary defender (50.9% of the time he contests a shot, it goes in) Thats really, really bad. Just like last year, Andre Drummond is one of the worst low post players in the NBA. He doesn't even really try to stop other teams from scoring, like Whiteside last year he just stands to go for the rebound. However, he is the hardest working rebounder in the league chasing after it more than any other center this year 51.4% of the time. He GETS that rebound 55% of the time he chases after it, good for 12th among all players in the NBA. On the offensive side, he chases 28.3% of the time (13th among players) and gets it 58.3% of the time he goes after it (6th in the NBA). As far as his scoring goes he has been involved in 507 plays this year (4th among centers in the league), but his TS% in plays he is invovled is 44% good for the 10th worst center in the NBA (including backups). Conclusion: Andre Drummond is a guy who is fucking TERRIBLE at defending the low post, but great at getting the rebound on both ends, he also has one the the highest usage rates for a center in the league while converting on his attempts at one of the worst rates in the league. He is currently getting BETTER in the post than last year (he was the worst starting post player in the league last year), but he has exactly 0% olajuwon in him. He doesn't change direction in the paint, and he doesn't convert his baskets. Vote: 83 nyloncalculus.com/stats/true-usage/nyloncalculus.com/stats/rim-protection/ |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Dec 13, 2015 21:06:40 GMT
84
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Post by Bryan Colangelo on Dec 13, 2015 21:20:27 GMT
84
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Post by James Kay on Dec 13, 2015 21:24:00 GMT
I think his defense is suspect and his offense is still raw, but he's the cog in that team that makes all of their success possible. 86
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Dec 13, 2015 21:36:26 GMT
My response to all the criticism is that Detroit is the 7th in Def efficiency, and that's not because of Ersan Illyasova or Reggie Jackson or KCP. It because of Andre Drummond. I watch them a lot since they're entertaining and tho only guys who could even be average defenders on that team are Marcus Morris and Stanley Johnson, neither of whom protect the rim.
I think his advanced stats show he allows a high % bc he contests literally everything at the rim.
TL;DR: He carries the #7 Defense that should count for something
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Dec 14, 2015 0:12:21 GMT
83 Thanks for those numbers and analysis Adam.
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Post by James Kay on Dec 14, 2015 0:21:39 GMT
My response to all the criticism is that Detroit is the 7th in Def efficiency, and that's not because of Ersan Illyasova or Reggie Jackson or KCP. It because of Andre Drummond. I watch them a lot since they're entertaining and tho only guys who could even be average defenders on that team are Marcus Morris and Stanley Johnson, neither of whom protect the rim. I think his advanced stats show he allows a high % bc he contests literally everything at the rim. TL;DR: He carries the #7 Defense that should count for something Hey! I don;t think you should lump in Reggie with KCP and Ily. I advocated for Drummond's high rating, but I think Reggie's ability to run the PnR is definitely important and he is the #2 reason for DET's success so far this year. Reggie is also a good defender on that team... Again, Drummond is fucking fantastic. I think the other people in this thread are evaluating him on criteria which may not be as important to his game. He may not be great at post moves or the best defender for a big man, but he's an absolute monster of a rebounder and excelled in his role so far this season. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2015 0:24:32 GMT
My response to all the criticism is that Detroit is the 7th in Def efficiency, and that's not because of Ersan Illyasova or Reggie Jackson or KCP. It because of Andre Drummond. I watch them a lot since they're entertaining and tho only guys who could even be average defenders on that team are Marcus Morris and Stanley Johnson, neither of whom protect the rim. I think his advanced stats show he allows a high % bc he contests literally everything at the rim. TL;DR: He carries the #7 Defense that should count for something Hey! I don;t think you should lump in Reggie with KCP and Ily. I advocated for Drummond's high rating, but I think Reggie's ability to run the PnR is definitely important and he is the #2 reason for DET's success so far this year. Reggie is also a good defender on that team... Again, Drummond is fucking fantastic. I think the other people in this thread are evaluating him on criteria which may not be as important to his game. He may not be great at post moves or the best defender for a big man, but he's an absolute monster of a rebounder and excelled in his role so far this season. Yeah, but if youre only good at 2 things, an 87 that does not make. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Dec 14, 2015 0:53:26 GMT
I more or less agree with Adam. You can check my post history, I've always pointed out that he is probably the worst defensive center in the league for the past two seasons, and he might be even worse this year. I think he is a poor man's DeAndre Jordan. However, let's keep in mind that defense is mainly just about effort, and he is still super young, so I definitely see him improving. I'd go 83 for Drummond as well. You can't honestly believe that when Enes Kanter is a post player. 84 just based off increasing rebounding. |
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Post by James Kay on Dec 14, 2015 1:26:39 GMT
Hey! I don;t think you should lump in Reggie with KCP and Ily. I advocated for Drummond's high rating, but I think Reggie's ability to run the PnR is definitely important and he is the #2 reason for DET's success so far this year. Reggie is also a good defender on that team... Again, Drummond is fucking fantastic. I think the other people in this thread are evaluating him on criteria which may not be as important to his game. He may not be great at post moves or the best defender for a big man, but he's an absolute monster of a rebounder and excelled in his role so far this season. Yeah, but if youre only good at 2 things, an 87 that does not make. FWIW i voted 86... Regardless, when you're really fucking good at those things and your team is looking/playing really well, and youre pretty unquestionably top 3 at your position, 86 is fairly reasonable, IMO |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2015 1:33:23 GMT
Yeah, but if youre only good at 2 things, an 87 that does not make. FWIW i voted 86... Regardless, when you're really fucking good at those things and your team is looking/playing really well, and youre pretty unquestionably top 3 at your position, 86 is fairly reasonable, IMO He's been a top 3 center for about 20 games. Before that he wasn't even top 10. A guy that can't defend at all, at the most important defensive position in the league, is not a top 3 center anyway. Rebounds be damned. I don't understand how you can be the only decent big man on a team getting 34 mpg, "contesting" the amount of shots he is contesting and only average 1.6 blocks per game anyway. |
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Post by James Kay on Dec 14, 2015 1:43:51 GMT
FWIW i voted 86... Regardless, when you're really fucking good at those things and your team is looking/playing really well, and youre pretty unquestionably top 3 at your position, 86 is fairly reasonable, IMO He's been a top 3 center for about 20 games. Before that he wasn't even top 10. A guy that can't defend at all, at the most important defensive position in the league, is not a top 3 center anyway. Rebounds be damned. I don't understand how you can be the only decent big man on a team getting 34 mpg, "contesting" the amount of shots he is contesting and only average 1.6 blocks per game anyway. Hey, he's really not particularly great at defense. If he was, I'd be voting even higher |
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Post by Alex English on Dec 14, 2015 6:18:25 GMT
He's not worth more than an 83. For whatever reason it's been an ignored fact by most that Drummond isn't very good on defense. I guess the Pistons will have to be a playoff contender before most people will start to care. All of Adam's post shows his issues there well. But he also isn't very talented offensively either. This is his shot chart so far this season:  He can't do shit but put in dunks and layups. He shoots 37.3% outside of 3 feet from the basket and outside of 10 feet he's just 2-17 on the season and he has a grand total of 1 field goal made outside the key. Where are we supposed to put all his rating points? We can't really put them in his offensive categories, and we can't put them in his defensive categories. He's not a very impressive shot blocker. He's one of the worst free throw shooters in history. How the hell can we get him to an 87? He's an incredible rebounder, and a fantastic athlete. That's about it. He is not worth a rating in the high 80s. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2015 6:48:05 GMT
His last season numbers he is actually the worst in Points scored per shots minus points expected per shot in the ENTIRE LEAGUE. With the "points expected" calculated based on distance from the rim and distance from a defender.
Drummond -116.3
Asik -107.3
Nerlens -105.1
Corey Brewer -100
Josh Smith -97
Of course, this year he is better (SHAC hasn't been calculated for 15/16 yet), but you don't go from worst offensive player (oh he is also terrible at defense too) in the league to an 87 rated player after 20 games.
Really, the fact that he was an 83 last year is hilarious by itself.
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Dec 14, 2015 7:36:35 GMT
Yeah, but if youre only good at 2 things, an 87 that does not make. FWIW i voted 86... Regardless, when you're really fucking good at those things and your team is looking/playing really well, and youre pretty unquestionably top 3 at your position, 86 is fairly reasonable, IMO This is what I am talking about James. You are not evaluating skills but you are putting a number on something that you believe is right. This should be about the skills of each player, not who is better and best blah blah blah. |
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Post by James Kay on Dec 14, 2015 13:32:36 GMT
His last season numbers he is actually the worst in Points scored per shots minus points expected per shot in the ENTIRE LEAGUE. With the "points expected" calculated based on distance from the rim and distance from a defender. Drummond -116.3 Asik -107.3 Nerlens -105.1 Corey Brewer -100 Josh Smith -97 Of course, this year he is better (SHAC hasn't been calculated for 15/16 yet), but you don't go from worst offensive player (oh he is also terrible at defense too) in the league to an 87 rated player after 20 games. Really, the fact that he was an 83 last year is hilarious by itself. We both know this stat is incredibly inflated because Drummond tips the ball to himself like a million times Which would also inflate his rebounding numbers, but of course his shooting %s are going to go down when you do that |
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Dec 14, 2015 19:10:32 GMT
83
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Dec 14, 2015 19:38:14 GMT
James Kay I meant on defense Reggie still isn't the best. On offense I sincerely believe he is a top 7 PG I'm one of Reggie's biggest fans. I think he is already a star type player and can get even better. What I would say as an abbreviated response to all those stats. In one game who would you want over Drummond? I'd rather have Dre than Deandre and Brook, I don't know anybody who wouldn't. The only centers I'd take over Dre is Marc Gasol, though he's been pretty bad this year, and DMC, who may be having the worst shooting season of a Center in the last decade. Also if he's so terrible, who is carrying this Detroit team to a winning record? I love Reggie but he can't carry a team yet. If you watch their team everything goes through Dre, he is the focal point of offense where sometimes their strategy seems to be throw the ball at the rim and hope Dre gets the putback. He the most powerful center in the league who changes the game completely with his rebounding. I appreciate the role of stats and some don't favor Dre but at this point the analytics aren't at a point where we can take them alone without watching the games.
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Post by James Kay on Dec 14, 2015 19:46:48 GMT
James Kay I meant on defense Reggie still isn't the best. On offense I sincerely believe he is a top 7 PG I'm one of Reggie's biggest fans. I think he is already a star type player and can get even better. What I would say as an abbreviated response to all those stats. In one game who would you want over Drummond? I'd rather have Dre than Deandre and Brook, I don't know anybody who wouldn't. The only centers I'd take over Dre is Marc Gasol, though he's been pretty bad this year, and DMC, who may be having the worst shooting season of a Center in the last decade. Also if he's so terrible, who is carrying this Detroit team to a winning record? I love Reggie but he can't carry a team yet. If you watch their team everything goes through Dre, he is the focal point of offense where sometimes their strategy seems to be throw the ball at the rim and hope Dre gets the putback. He the most powerful center in the league who changes the game completely with his rebounding. I appreciate the role of stats and some don't favor Dre but at this point the analytics aren't at a point where we can take them alone without watching the games. Agreed with everything you said basically - reggie needs to work on his defense and you have to watch drummond play to see the attention he forces the defense to pay to him every game. That being said, I think Reggie, Drumm, and SVG's coaching are kinda co-carrying this Pistons team right now. |
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Dec 14, 2015 19:49:05 GMT
Going off what Jame's said, the Pistons literally run 3 plays, Reggie Iso, Drummond post up and Reggie Drummond PnR. And they are in a playoff spot! That has to tell you something about those two players. Also shows that SVG is such a good fucking coach.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2015 19:51:13 GMT
Going off what Jame's said, the Pistons literally run 3 plays, Reggie Iso, Drummond post up and Reggie Drummond PnR. And they are in a playoff spot! That has to tell you something about those two players. Also shows that SVG is such a good fucking coach. Bruh Drummond was on that team last year and it was horrible. Reggie Jackson is the only reason they aren't shitty. If Spencer Dinwiddie or Galloway or shit like that was their PG Drummond wouldn't even be considered a top 5 center, (maybe a top 5 C asset due to his age). |
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Dec 14, 2015 20:01:02 GMT
Going off what Jame's said, the Pistons literally run 3 plays, Reggie Iso, Drummond post up and Reggie Drummond PnR. And they are in a playoff spot! That has to tell you something about those two players. Also shows that SVG is such a good fucking coach. Bruh Drummond was on that team last year and it was horrible. Reggie Jackson is the only reason they aren't shitty. If Spencer Dinwiddie or Galloway or shit like that was their PG Drummond wouldn't even be considered a top 5 center, (maybe a top 5 C asset due to his age). I dont wanna get in a long protracted debate that clutters up the post but my final point would be that this year there is no Greg Monroe clogging the paint, they had a whole summer practicing without a SF, Josh Smith, who can't shoot and Drummond simply is a year older and had another summer to practice. I can kinda tell you guys don't watch the Pistons because if you did you'd see the hook shot from Dre is really a huge weapon. He deadly with it. Also he doesn't shoot outside the paint because every PnR his job is to roll hard to the rim and either get a lob or pocket pass or suck in defenders and have Reggie kickout to a shooter. He's doing what they want him to do and the threat of him opens other people up all the time. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Dec 15, 2015 1:25:08 GMT
I just want to add to this debate. I think that Drummond is a great up and comer. His offense is limited and his rebounding IS his main thing. Which tons of guys can do. BUUUUUUUUUUUUT those guys don't completely change a game with rebounding. The only other player that does that is Tristan Thompson with O rebounds and he really hasn't done it as much this season. When you are so good at something that it changes the entire way the team is able to play, that is special. The only thing keeping him from being able to be raised above that 84 threshold for me is that he is so bad at another thing that causes his team to completely change the way things can be played and that is his horrid free throw shooting.
And to those using the "He's so young" excuse as a reason to increase him need to slow there roll. He's so young is never an excuse used to support raising a player. He's so young is a reason to be more tempered in their rating. He does deserve a boost for his improvements. However if he goes to an 87 then he'd be impossible to improve again for like 4-5 seasons. Thats just dumb. He's an 84, a great starter.
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Post by Alex English on Dec 15, 2015 3:18:06 GMT
What I would say as an abbreviated response to all those stats. In one game who would you want over Drummond? I'd rather have Dre than Deandre and Brook, I don't know anybody who wouldn't. The only centers I'd take over Dre is Marc Gasol, though he's been pretty bad this year, and DMC, who may be having the worst shooting season of a Center in the last decade. You would rather have Drummond over DeAndre Jordan, Brook Lopez, Marc Gasol, and DeMarcus Cousins? I'd take all four of those guys over Drummond. Gasol and Jordan are two of the best post defenders in the league and Brook and Cousins are two of the best offensive posts in the league. Also Cousins FG% is so low because he's taking 4 three point attempts a game. He's making 30.3% too which is pretty good since in his first 5 seasons he only hit 11 threes total. Around the rim Cousins shoots 58.7% while Drummond shoots 61.5%, so not that different, and Cousins has a higher true shooting percentage at 52.4% compared to 50.3% for Dummond. |
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Dec 15, 2015 15:06:16 GMT
I would definitely want Jordan over Drummond.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Dec 15, 2015 15:08:20 GMT
I'd rather have Dre than Drummond or brook. I'd still rather have dmc, and at least for now Marc though he seems to be declining.
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Post by Ian Noble on Dec 15, 2015 22:29:50 GMT
84
I think it's worth noting that if a player excels in one or two areas then that really is better than if they're average at a lot of things in the NBA.
Drummond excels at rebounding, is a formidable threat on offense and he is a presence on D. He's the anchor for an overachieving team and he once got traded here at the old D5* (off season league) straight up for Boogie.
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Post by Alex English on Dec 15, 2015 23:03:48 GMT
is a formidable threat on offense and he is a presence on D. These things are only ostensibly true, which is the issue. It's believed of him, but he's not all that great at either. |
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Post by Bryan Colangelo on Jan 5, 2016 21:31:10 GMT
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