Gorgui Dieng

[Walt Frazier]

STATS in JANUARY

FG%	FT%	PTS	REB	AST	STL	BLK
49.6%	83.7%	11.1	9.6	2.6	0.8	2.1

Up to 32:50 mpg, still holding strong in his increased opportunities.  Actually improving with more time.  4mpg does not account for 1.8 points and 1.5 rebounds, 0.6 ast, and 0.5 block increases.  

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2015 18:33:52 GMT Walt Frazier said:

STATS in JANUARY

FG%	FT%	PTS	REB	AST	STL	BLK
49.6%	83.7%	11.1	9.6	2.6	0.8	2.1

Up to 32:50 mpg, still holding strong in his increased opportunities.  Actually improving with more time.  4mpg does not account for 1.8 points and 1.5 rebounds, 0.6 ast, and 0.5 block increases.  

And some people dont think he looks better than Alex Len or Mason Plumlee... boggles my mind. Dieng is special.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

We may as well just have a monthly "what shitty player is putting up good stats on the Timberwolves" stock watch thread.

[Kevin Hollis]

Either way, both ratings will get cancelled regardless of how high you rate him.

[Alex English]

Jan 27, 2015 18:28:51 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Wow dude. Wow. Did you get hacked?

9.8 / 8.6 / 2.3 ast / 1.0 stl / 1.8 blk in just under 30 mpg, while shooting 50% from the field and 80% from the line?! 73?? What the holy hell lol. We won't be able to give him credit for half his FT, half his inside/dunk game, half his steal, half his block, or any of his passing game. Maybe not his rebounding game either. Gonna go update my 79 to an 82.

How the hell is Gorgui Dieng worth an 82? You know you voted to give Mason Plumlee a 75 right? Have you compared these two players at all?

Dieng per game:
29.8 mpg, 9.8 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 2.3 apg, 1.0 spg, 1.8 bpg, 49.7 FG%, 80.0 FT%, 18.1 PER

Plumlee per game:
22.7 mpg, 10.4 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 0.9 apg, 0.8 spg, 1.0 bpg, 59.4 FG%, 49.2 FT%, 20.1 PER

---

Dieng per 36:
11.9 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 2.7 apg, 1.2 spg, 2.1 bpg, 49.7 FG%, 80.0 FT%, 18.1 PER

Plumlee per 36:
16.5 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 1.4 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.5 bpg, 59.4 FG%, 49.2 FT%, 20.1 PER

---

Also since you brought Dieng's awesome stats in January then lets compare that as well.

Dieng in January:
32.8 mpg, 11.1 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 2.6 apg, 0.8 spg, 2.1 bpg, 49.6 FG%, 83.7 FT%

Plumlee in January:
27.1 mpg, 13.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 0.9 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.9 bpg, 68.6 FG%, 53.3 FT%

---

Now please whip out your abacus and slide rule and show me the 7 point difference between these two players. Call me crazy but I just don't see it.

[Deleted]

76

[Walt Frazier]

I'll respond to Alex in a minute, just wanted to share this in this thread since Barber sort of brought it up.

Jan 28, 2015 2:04:32 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Jan 24, 2015 17:04:21 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

Someone please put these 5 players in order of highest rated to lowest rated, then I'll tell you who they all are, and you can all go look at how you rated them.

OK first of all, everyone is hesitant with young players.  I think if you threw Tyson Chandler in this group and looked at the ratings he got elsewhere, a couple of these guys might need to get boosts. 

For example, I know Player 1 is Dieng.  Here's him vs. Tyson Chandler

29:50 mpg / 49.7 FG% (7.2 FGA) / 80.0 FT% / 9.8 pts / 8.6 reb / 2.3 ast / 1.0 stl / 1.8 blk 
31:04 mpg / 66.9 FG% (5.9 FGA) / 74.3 FT% / 10.5 pts / 12.0 reb / 1.3 ast / 0.5 stl / 1.4 blk


I've got Tyson at an 84 I believe and I just upped Dieng to an 81.  I was on the edge of an 80 or 81, 81 may be too quick, but I don't believe it is too high.  With Dieng's advantages in passing, doubled up in steals, and a half a block more in a little less time per game, plus a FT% advantage, and the points are basically equal factoring minutes...I dunno.  Tyson has a Rebound advantage clearly, and a FG% advantage, but Dieng takes a couple more shots per game and is not bad there.  Tyson is a pick and roll machine and a putback dunk guy supreme.  He's better than Dieng.  But I think my 81 is pretty good considering Dieng is younger and less proven.  On stats alone (which is all you are trying to use in your chart obviously), Dieng's ratings maybe should be even closer to Tyson's overall.  That Rebound & Dunk/Inside advantage for Tyson is about all he has.  Dieng's Steal/Block/Pass/FT will eat up that advantage pretty quickly.

Anyway, on your chart, taken out of context...I would go something like this:

#1
#5
#2
#6
#3
#4

I don't care if I haven't rated them that way b/c we all use more than JUST stats.

[Walt Frazier]

Jan 27, 2015 22:19:56 GMT Alex English said:

Jan 27, 2015 18:28:51 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Wow dude. Wow. Did you get hacked?

9.8 / 8.6 / 2.3 ast / 1.0 stl / 1.8 blk in just under 30 mpg, while shooting 50% from the field and 80% from the line?! 73?? What the holy hell lol. We won't be able to give him credit for half his FT, half his inside/dunk game, half his steal, half his block, or any of his passing game. Maybe not his rebounding game either. Gonna go update my 79 to an 82.

How the hell is Gorgui Dieng worth an 82? You know you voted to give Mason Plumlee a 75 right? Have you compared these two players at all?

Dieng per game:
29.8 mpg, 9.8 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 2.3 apg, 1.0 spg, 1.8 bpg, 49.7 FG%, 80.0 FT%, 18.1 PER

Plumlee per game:
22.7 mpg, 10.4 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 0.9 apg, 0.8 spg, 1.0 bpg, 59.4 FG%, 49.2 FT%, 20.1 PER

---

Dieng per 36:
11.9 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 2.7 apg, 1.2 spg, 2.1 bpg, 49.7 FG%, 80.0 FT%, 18.1 PER

Plumlee per 36:
16.5 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 1.4 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.5 bpg, 59.4 FG%, 49.2 FT%, 20.1 PER

---

Also since you brought Dieng's awesome stats in January then lets compare that as well.

Dieng in January:
32.8 mpg, 11.1 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 2.6 apg, 0.8 spg, 2.1 bpg, 49.6 FG%, 83.7 FT%

Plumlee in January:
27.1 mpg, 13.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 0.9 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.9 bpg, 68.6 FG%, 53.3 FT%

---

Now please whip out your abacus and slide rule and show me the 7 point difference between these two players. Call me crazy but I just don't see it.

First of all, I changed my Dieng rating to an 81, not an 82.  I mentioned 82 in my response to Brian but it was more of a reactionary thing to his rating which was, IMO, crazy low.  I thought about just an 80 for Dieng, and was on the edge, but went with the 81.

Second, these #'s do 2 things for me.  #1 - Make me want to raise my Plumlee rating SOME, and #2 - Still convince me that Dieng is the better overall player, by a decent chunk still.  I need to see Plumlee start for the majority of the season, and also increase his FT%, and passing, and add a little more to his rebounding, and his blocks before I put him equal to Dieng.  The areas where Mason is ahead are minimal, and the areas where Dieng is ahead are, comparatively, larger gaps.  

---

The FG% would almost be the one exception there, but they have different games.  

Dieng has taken 103 of his 310 shots (33%) outside the paint this season, and has made 41.7% of them including his 1-3 from beyond the arc.  Dieng makes 59.4% of his shots taken right at the rim.  

Mason has taken just 15 of his 303 shots (5%) outside the paint this season, and has made only 26.7& of them including his 0-3 from beyond the arc.  Mason makes 62.6% of his shots taken right at the rim.

So, looking into that FG% harder, Mason will have a very tiny advantage in Inside Scoring rating, they are probably similar with a slight edge to Mason in their Dunk rating, and then Dieng will actually have a MUCH higher FG rating than Mason.  Rebound is about even all-told but Dieng has proven he can do it with the 30 mpg and Mason is down at 23 which is part-time player status.  So, add in the AST, BLK, and FT advantages for Dieng, and give the very slight advantage in STL to Mason, and I still am very comfortable rating Dieng at least 3-4 points above Mason.  Even just looking at their January stats which are improved for both players, Dieng takes the cake in rebounds, assists, by solid margins, blocks by a sizeable margin, and FT% by a sizeable margin.  He's definitely the better player at this point.

Time to go change my Mason rating a little bit though.  Thank you for getting me those stats to look at more in depth.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

This whole thread is stupid

[Walt Frazier]

Jan 28, 2015 2:59:22 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

This whole thread is stupid

Yea...because........you said so. Got it.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Shit, forgot I wasn't allowed to have opinions. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me

[Walt Frazier]

No need to get dramatic. I thought there was a fair amount of legit back-and-forth here with meaningful statistics and opinions shared. You come in and say it's stupid without any reasoning. I think that is stupid. If you don't have anything to contribute, why are you posting? At least give us something meaningful to chew on.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Honestly I don't read any post that looks longer than 3 sentences so I don't really know what everyone is arguing about.

[Walt Frazier]

Jan 28, 2015 4:18:50 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

Honestly I don't read any post that looks longer than 3 sentences so I don't really know what everyone is arguing about.

Not surprised I guess. Really plays into exactly what I'm saying. You honestly are doing nothing for the Stock Watch if you are just ignoring all of the talk going on. I mean, a vote/rating is nice and I like getting the full array of opinions, but if you're going to add in worthless comments it doesn't do anything.

[Charles Barkley]

Jan 28, 2015 4:20:53 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Jan 28, 2015 4:18:50 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

Honestly I don't read any post that looks longer than 3 sentences so I don't really know what everyone is arguing about.

Not surprised I guess. Really plays into exactly what I'm saying. You honestly are doing nothing for the Stock Watch if you are just ignoring all of the talk going on. I mean, a vote/rating is nice and I like getting the full array of opinions, but if you're going to add in worthless comments it doesn't do anything.

FWIW I think Barber lost the challenge a while back. 

But I think what Josh says holds some weight, the T'Wolves suck, and I think Pek is still out so they have no real inside presence besides Dieng. I think it is a mostly a product of stat stuffing on a bad team, but I still have Dieng rated pretty high, I believe. You can't ignore the stats, even if they are stuffed on a terrible team.

I am torn on the issue of a decent player on a terrible team getting a huge increase. I think a lot of it has to go on the eye test in these cases, and Dieng has talent, but I wouldn't put him in the same OVR category as guys like Drummond who is at an 81. And yes, I know, Drummond likely needs an increase. 

11 and 10 with 2 blocks a game for a big, and those are his January stats, are an 81 worthy in my eyes, however, because its on a bad team I decrease it. And that is just going off of pure stats. I believe I voted a 79, and I am sticking to that. The kid can play, but he hasn't produced it long enough, is on a bad team, and is the only real post player for them.

[Jeremiah Hill]

To be fair, stat stuffing doesn't work on defense. Stat stuffing happens with rebounds and points and then depending on the position turnovers. You can't really stat stuff stuff like blocks and steals.

[Walt Frazier]

Jan 28, 2015 17:13:39 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

To be fair, stat stuffing doesn't work on defense. Stat stuffing happens with rebounds and points and then depending on the position turnovers. You can't really stat stuff stuff like blocks and steals.

Can't stat stuff your FT% either.

Also, assists. If anything, you could argue the team is bad and he could have more assists if the players around him were better and made more shots.

FG% isn't stat-stuff able either. That's one of the main things I look at with players on bad teams who have solid counting numbers. If they are scoring 20 points on 39% shooting it becomes obvious what is happening.

[Blake Bowman]

Jan 27, 2015 20:04:42 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

We may as well just have a monthly "what shitty player is putting up good stats on the Timberwolves" stock watch thread.

#QFT

[Blake Bowman]

I like him, btw. I'd say 74 for now, wait and see, but I see both sides of this.

[Walt Frazier]

Jan 29, 2015 2:14:55 GMT Blake Bowman said:

Jan 27, 2015 20:04:42 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

We may as well just have a monthly "what shitty player is putting up good stats on the Timberwolves" stock watch thread.

#QFT

But Dieng has been doing it for the whole season. You saying he's also consistent? Thanks man!

[Blake Bowman]

Jan 29, 2015 2:18:09 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Jan 29, 2015 2:14:55 GMT Blake Bowman said:

#QFT

But Dieng has been doing it for the whole season. You saying he's also consistent? Thanks man!

I think there's some sarcasm in there... But Idk for sure, so you're welcome matey!

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

He is improving so I increase my suggestion by 1.

[Walt Frazier]

Jan 29, 2015 2:21:08 GMT Blake Bowman said:

Jan 29, 2015 2:18:09 GMT Walt Frazier said:

But Dieng has been doing it for the whole season. You saying he's also consistent? Thanks man!

I think there's some sarcasm in there... But Idk for sure, so you're welcome matey!

I'm just saying...look what Jeremiah and I are saying a couple posts above. IMO, you can spot the good players on bad teams and you can spot the bad players on bad teams. I honestly think it's laziness to write off all players on bad teams as bad players. Dieng does a lot of things we NEED to give him credit for like Steals, Blocks, great FT% for a big man, good FG%, and a solid passer for a big. Your 74 severely limits what we can give him credit for. None of those things are really affected by how good his team is. I may be the biggest believer in him in this league, and that's fine, but the 74 is insultingly low.

[Walt Frazier]

Going to close this thread. You can actually make changes to your vote or vote if you haven't yet, but the change is going to happen soon so do it soon!

Current stats are around 10pts / 9rb / 1.8blk / 1.0stl / 2.2 ast / 49.9% FG and 80.0% FT in 30 mpg. Right now he's going to be at a 77.