Joe Johnson

[Shaquille O'Neal]

83

[Chris Mullin]

83

[Bob McAdoo]

I own Jesus Joe Johnson and he's magic with time running out but he's not what he was - ain't none of us are. I would say that an 83 would be fair.

[Charles Barkley]

I'm going to go with an 84 here. Joe has declined more in usage than in skill this year. There's too many mouths to feed in BKN at the moment along with a different stylistic match for Joe.

[Deleted]

85

[Deleted]

Current Rating: 83
Proposed Rating: 85

I know he's my player now in F5 but I cannot believe we lowered Joe Johnson this much after his strong playoff performance versus the King. In the playoffs, Johnson averaged 21.2 PPG, 3.8 RPG, 2.9 APG, shot 53% from the field, 41.5% from 3, and 83.7% from the FT. Some of you hinted at this but I feel like Johnson's usage more than his skill as declined. The playoff numbers back that up (Johnson played 39.1 MPG in the playoffs versus 32.6 MPG in the regular season.) In support of this idea yet again, Johnson's per 36 minutes statistics actually went from the 2012-2013 season.

Additionally, I don't think people gave his credit even using regular season numbers. He still shot 40% from 3, averaged 15 ppg on a loaded team, and provides a rare combination of speed, strength, and skills. Therefore, I vote to raise Johnson from an 83 to an 85.

More Johnson Stats: www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsjo02.html#all_per_game

[Charles Barkley]

Jul 22, 2014 12:29:39 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Current Rating: 83
Proposed Rating: 85

I know he's my player now in F5 but I cannot believe we lowered Joe Johnson this much after his strong playoff performance versus the King. In the playoffs, Johnson averaged 21.2 PPG, 3.8 RPG, 2.9 APG, shot 53% from the field, 41.5% from 3, and 83.7% from the FT. Some of you hinted at this but I feel like Johnson's usage more than his skill as declined. The playoff numbers back that up (Johnson played 39.1 MPG in the playoffs versus 32.6 MPG in the regular season.) In support of this idea yet again, Johnson's per 36 minutes statistics actually went from the 2012-2013 season.

Additionally, I don't think people gave his credit even using regular season numbers. He still shot 40% from 3, averaged 15 ppg on a loaded team, and provides a rare combination of speed, strength, and skills. Therefore, I vote to raise Johnson from an 83 to an 85.

More Johnson Stats: www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsjo02.html#all_per_game

If we were basing things off of play-off performances, Harrison Barnes would be an 85 because of 2 years ago or so. 

Whether or not Joe Johnson declined this year is unkown because of what Brooklyn was. They were a team with lots of mouths and 1 ball. He actually had a better usage rate this year vs last year and had a small dip in PPG. 

He's currently an 86. If we eliminate this past year, and just say his stats are down because the team had more mouths to feed, he still only put up 16 a game in 2012-2013.

He hasn't been a 20 PPG guy since 09-10 in Atlanta. This increase is long over due. He definitely isn't an 85. A playoff series shouldn't be our basis for our ratings, if that's our new standard and motto, it changes A LOT of things. 

DeMar DeRozan is going up to an 84, he doesn't shoot it from deep as well as Joe, but he scored 6 more PPG this season.

I think that the SWC will look at the rating decrease for Joe Johnson, look at his stats, and conclude that he can still shoot. Therefore they won't drop his shooting stats, but his athleticism stats and the other attributes. I don't remember what I voted before, but I think an 83 is fine for him.

[Jeremiah Hill]

How did Vlade get on the trade committee with this kind of obvious bias. Thats bullshit, 83 is fine for a guy who shoots 3s and does a little post work. And only averaging 16 points. There weren't that many mouths to feed their best player was out the majority of the season. Joe Johnson has always been a high usage scorer who does nothing else great. He's not the black hole that Rudy Gay is but he's not that amazing either.

[Jeremiah Hill]

Can we please worry about players that actually need changed?

[Deleted]

Jul 22, 2014 14:21:41 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

How did Vlade get on the trade committee with this kind of obvious bias. Thats bullshit, 83 is fine for a guy who shoots 3s and does a little post work. And only averaging 16 points. There weren't that many mouths to feed their best player was out the majority of the season. Joe Johnson has always been a high usage scorer who does nothing else great. He's not the black hole that Rudy Gay is but he's not that amazing either.

Are you shitting me? I am not letting you get away with this fucking bullshit.

You are referencing Rudy Gay who will be raised to an 85 soon. I am not asking for anything more than to put him in that 86 to 84 range. How does that make me bias?

I would also like to attack two of your premises, that all Joe Johnson does is score and the Nets did not have "too many mouths to feed."

#1: Joe Johnson averages 4 assist per game and 4.3 rebounds per game for his career. In addition, he averaged over 4 assist per game 7 of the 13 years he played with a high of 6.5 assist per game.

#2: 12 of the 19 players who played for Brooklyn last year scored over 5 points per game. Sure Johnson, may have been the #2 option but the Nets possessed a lot of depth and needed to get everyone shots.

Again, as I said before, I am arguing that his usage more than his skills have declined. You can agree or disagree with that but please refrain from calling my bias.

PS. For my boy Jhill!

Chris Bosh - 16.2 PPG - 88
Joe Johnson - 15.8 PPG - 83

[Jeremiah Hill]

First off that entire Rudy Gay thread was started because of your bullshit cry babying over Josh Smith sucking at helping his team. Rudy Gay sucks and can't hit 3pointers because he won't wear glasses. Chris Bosh's usage went down with LBJ if his useage was higher he would have better stats. No fucking shit. Joe Johnson's minutes went down because he is declining and he can't be counted on to play as long anymore. He's always stunk on defense and hasn't gotten any better. I would say that Steve Nash's skills haven't declined either but that doesn't mean shit because he can't play anymore. Athleticism is part of the OVR and it should be reflected in Joe Johnson's scores. There is no reason he can't put up stats like that in the sim as an 83.

[Deleted]

Jul 22, 2014 17:09:00 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

First off that entire Rudy Gay thread was started because of your bullshit cry babying over Josh Smith sucking at helping his team. Rudy Gay sucks and can't hit 3pointers because he won't wear glasses. Chris Bosh's usage went down with LBJ if his useage was higher he would have better stats. No fucking shit. Joe Johnson's minutes went down because he is declining and he can't be counted on to play as long anymore. He's always stunk on defense and hasn't gotten any better. I would say that Steve Nash's skills haven't declined either but that doesn't mean shit because he can't play anymore. Athleticism is part of the OVR and it should be reflected in Joe Johnson's scores. There is no reason he can't put up stats like that in the sim as an 83.

How come he played and produced more in the playoffs then?

PS. I already resigned from the RC for you, quit fucking crazy because I can make an argument and you don't like it.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

I voted 87 during the first discussion, and I stick by it. I watched basically every single Nets game and Joe Johnson is the best player on the floor, for either team, 90% of the time.

[Jeremiah Hill]

Most veteran players produce more in the playoffs. Rashad Lewis played like shit the whole season and then during the playoffs made some really big plays and averaged more minutes. That doesn't mean we should raise him up to an 80 does it?

[Jeremiah Hill]

Besides everyone already voted and alot more people voted on this than some of the others the vote probably wouldn't change anyway.

[Deleted]

Jul 22, 2014 18:21:29 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

Most veteran players produce more in the playoffs. Rashad Lewis played like shit the whole season and then during the playoffs made some really big plays and averaged more minutes. That doesn't mean we should raise him up to an 80 does it?

Lewis is a little tougher because he didn't play much until the playoffs where as Johnson played well in the regular season but stepped it up in the playoffs. I am not sure how it's so absurd that I am asking for a point or two based on playoff performance but hey whatever. Luckily I resigned from the RC so you can't throw that bullshit "I am bias" crap around every time I give an opinion about a player.

[Jeremiah Hill]

Also the difference between regular season and playoffs this year for Joe was 39mpg compared to 32 for the regular season. He shot 53% to 45% which is a hot streak nothing normal. He had a good playoffs no one is arguing that. But if you want to say that he can keep up 53% shooting and 39 mpg a whole season I and anyone else would call you a liar.

[Deleted]

Jul 22, 2014 18:32:04 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

Also the difference between regular season and playoffs this year for Joe was 39mpg compared to 32 for the regular season. He shot 53% to 45% which is a hot streak nothing normal. He had a good playoffs no one is arguing that. But if you want to say that he can keep up 53% shooting and 39 mpg a whole season I and anyone else would call you a liar.

THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Man you are difficult! If he averaged 53% shooting he would be like a 90, so no I am not saying that. Rather, I saying we should give him a point or two back from our previous drop because of his playoffs.

[Jeremiah Hill]

And I'm saying that his playoffs is irrelevant. Players in this SIM go on hot and cold streaks just like they do in real life. By giving him a raise you are saying that he can replicate his old performance that his previous rating was based off of for an 82 game season, I'm saying he can't.

I'm not saying that Joe Johnson is terrible. He's overpaid but he's not terrible. I'm saying that he is not an all-star level talent anymore.

In the SIM he's averaging 18 ppg at 42%, 3.8 rpg, 5.3 apg, 1.4stls and .27 blocks.

His percentages are off but I would attribute that to him presumably playing on the Pistons which had him out of position too often. But then boom he's still averaging WAY too many steals and blocks. If anything I would say that he needs more of a reshuffling of his ratings than a raise. He needs to be lowered significantly on the defensive end and given a little bit of a boost to his 3 point shooting to get him up to a good %. That way his actually really good efficiency is taken into account along with his lack of defense. Which still leaves him firmly at 83 for me but with a few ratings shuffled around.

[Deleted]

Jul 22, 2014 21:18:05 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

And I'm saying that his playoffs is irrelevant.

Wow!

[Jeremiah Hill]

I'm done with this topic my vote is an 83 but just switch tge ratings around to make him really good on offense but not so good on defense.

[Charles Barkley]

Jul 22, 2014 16:44:57 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Jul 22, 2014 14:21:41 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

How did Vlade get on the trade committee with this kind of obvious bias. Thats bullshit, 83 is fine for a guy who shoots 3s and does a little post work. And only averaging 16 points. There weren't that many mouths to feed their best player was out the majority of the season. Joe Johnson has always been a high usage scorer who does nothing else great. He's not the black hole that Rudy Gay is but he's not that amazing either.

Are you shitting me? I am not letting you get away with this fucking bullshit.

You are referencing Rudy Gay who will be raised to an 85 soon. I am not asking for anything more than to put him in that 86 to 84 range. How does that make me bias?

I would also like to attack two of your premises, that all Joe Johnson does is score and the Nets did not have "too many mouths to feed."

#1: Joe Johnson averages 4 assist per game and 4.3 rebounds per game for his career. In addition, he averaged over 4 assist per game 7 of the 13 years he played with a high of 6.5 assist per game.

#2: 12 of the 19 players who played for Brooklyn last year scored over 5 points per game. Sure Johnson, may have been the #2 option but the Nets possessed a lot of depth and needed to get everyone shots.

Again, as I said before, I am arguing that his usage more than his skills have declined. You can agree or disagree with that but please refrain from calling my bias.

PS. For my boy Jhill!

Chris Bosh - 16.2 PPG - 88
Joe Johnson - 15.8 PPG - 83

1. Why are you comparing career stats here. Joe Johnson was good. Now he isn't as good. Just because he was good in the past means he should be good now? There's zero sense in that. If this was the case, all the players who have ever been in the top 10 in the league, would stay in the top 10 in the league. Things have to change.

2. As I said in my statement, which seemed to have been just disregarded because it made too much sense, if we eliminate Johnson's 2013-2014 season because of the too many mouths factor, he still didn't put up good enough numbers in 2012-2013 for him to be an 84 or an 85 or whatever. 

3. His usage rate WENT UP IN 2013-2014?!?!?! How can you say his usage rate declined? You admitted that there were too many mouths to feed on the 2013-2014 season, yet with these new mouths to feed, his usage rate went up. Please explain your logic on this one.

I didn't say it, but Jeremiah referenced the black whole that is Rudy Gay, he wasn't referencing that Rudy Gay wasn't good, but that when Rudy Gay gets the ball, everyone moves to the other side of the court and lets Rudy do his thing. Rudy put up 20 points a game this past season. Johnson hasn't done that since 2008-2009. Yet, because of the FG% and 3PT%, they can remain somewhat close in OVR rating, however, Rudy Gay is the better player right now. 

[Charles Barkley]

Jul 22, 2014 18:14:47 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

I voted 87 during the first discussion, and I stick by it. I watched basically every single Nets game and Joe Johnson is the best player on the floor, for either team, 90% of the time.

Earlier you said he has gotten better since his time in Atlanta, is this just by the eye test? Because his stats in Atlanta vs now have declined considerably when we consider what Joe Johnson is, a score first guard who creates his own shot at times, but never really creates for others. 

If it is by the eye test, then I'm not going to say anything, I haven't watch any Nets basketball really. But there are no stats that really point in the direction that Joe has gotten better since his Atlanta days.

[Deleted]

People in Cleveland cannot read, I swear! WHAT'S IN CLEVELAND!?!?!?

#1: I compared career statistics because Jeremiah said "all Johnson can do is score" which I showed his inaccurate.

#2: I don't understand what you are saying.

#3: Johnson played less minutes in 2013-2014 than he did since 02-03 and played better than he did in 2012-2013. I am equating less minutes with usage.

#4: See "the Chris Bosh rule" by Jeremiah Hill for my explanation of your Gay/Johnson comparison.

[Blake Bowman]

Johnson balls hard, his game is fun to watch, and he had a nice postseason in addition to his all-star season.. I would say he's good at 86, but 86 seems a wee-bit high; when looking at other guards around the league he could go down a point or two..

85

[Charles Barkley]

Jul 23, 2014 4:33:05 GMT Vlade Divac said:

People in Cleveland cannot read, I swear! WHAT'S IN CLEVELAND!?!?!?

#1: I compared career statistics because Jeremiah said "all Johnson can do is score" which I showed his inaccurate.

#2: I don't understand what you are saying.

#3: Johnson played less minutes in 2013-2014 than he did since 02-03 and played better than he did in 2012-2013. I am equating less minutes with usage.

#4: See "the Chris Bosh rule" by Jeremiah Hill for my explanation of your Gay/Johnson comparison.

Dude, do you really have to do the whole personal attack thing with me? We can't just have a civilized discussion about a player, his rating, and his stats? This stuff isn't personal, yet you seemed to have made it personal by saying that about me. I read your post that I quoted, I'm not going to read your and Jeremiahs petty little bullshit arguments because you both happen to be on your period at the same time again.



Season    Tm   G  GS  MP      FT FTA   FT%   ORB  DRB  TRB  AST  STL BLK   TOV    PTS

2011-12  ATL 60 60   35.5    2.6-3.1  84.9   0.9   2.8   3.7   3.9   0.8   0.2   1.9    18.8

2012-13  BRK 72 72  36.7    1.8-2.2  82.0   0.7   2.3   3.0   3.5   0.7   0.2   1.7    16.3

2013-14  BRK 79 79  32.6    2.0-2.5  81.5   0.6   2.8   3.4   2.7   0.6   0.1   1.5    15.8



FGM-A         FG%    3PM-A    3P%    2PM-A      2P%
7.1-15.5     45.4     2.1-5.4  38.8    5.0-10.2   48.9
6.2-14.6     42.3     2.1-5.5  37.5    4.1-9.1     45.2 
5.8-12.9     45.4     2.1-5.1  40.1    3.8-7.8     48.9

Any guard that is on the floor for 30+ minutes a night and is a ball dominant guard is going to get assists. DeMar got 4 assists last season, Gay got 3 assists last season. Does getting 4 assists a night really mean anything at all? He is a guard, who handles the ball, if he didn't get 3-4 assists, he would be taking bad shots and making bad decisions with the ball in his hand. This would lead to a lower FG% than the norm. He shoots 45% from the field. Gay shot the ball an average of 17 times a night and had a 45.1 FG%, DeMar shot it 18 times a night and had a 43 FG%. His FG% is average, and even one could say below average given the amount of shots he has taken the last three years in the league. 

You want Joe Johnson to be an 85, DeMar is getting a boost to an 84. DeMar averaged 1 more rebound and 1 more assist a night. Took 5 more shots and only has a 2 point difference in FG%, DeMar also got to the line 8 times a game last season and shot 82.4% from the stripe. DeMar average 6.9 more PPG than Johnson did. 

The only stat that is in Johnson's favor is that he shot 40%f from three and DeMar shot 30% from three. YET YOU WANT JOHNSON TO BE RATED 1 POINT HIGHER THAN DEMAR? ARE YOU SERIOUS? 

Your basis for the beginning of your argument was that he showed how good he is during the playoffs. That is what? 20 games max for him? Why should a 20 game sample size over rule his past 3 years. Johnson going down from an 86 or whatever he currently is, isn't because he was bad this year, its because he hasn't played to the level of an 86 in the past 3 seasons plus. 

My second point is a direct argument against the cop-out that everyone gave to Johnson, that there were so many mouths to feed on the Nets team this year, that his stats went down. However, even though there were so many mouths on the Nets, he still had a higher usage rate than the previous year, when it was only him and Deron, and his stats still declined from 2012-2013 to 2013-2014. He played less minutes, ~4 per game less, but still had a higher usage rate. 

By comparison, DeMar had a total WS of 8.8 last season, Joe Johnson had 4.9 and a WS/48 of 0.091. While Gay posted 0.114 WS/48 and DeMar's was 0.141.

Did Joe Johnson have a better year in 2013-2014 than in 2012-2013? It's arguable. But was it worth a rating of an 85? No way. Was it worth a rating of an 83? No. It isn't worth a rating of an 83 when you compare that DeRozan is now an 84. 

Fuck this Chris Bosh scale shit. It makes no sense. Even more so, you're comparing a forward with a guard and are only using PPG. 

Not only was Rudy Gay better than Joe Johnson, but so was DeRozan. This isn't about career numbers, this about who they were for the 2013-2014 season. And Joe Johnson was average. That's it, that's all he was. Giving him a rating of an 83 is generous in the context of the other score first guard forwards out there. And, again, the basis to your argument was his good playoff numbers. We don't have LeBron as a 99 because he has good playoff numbers, KD isn't an 97 because he has good playoff numbers. If we only use play-off numbers to judge guys, what happens to Anthony Davis? Boogie? Love? 

The whole basis of your argument is unfounded. 

The decrease to Joe Johnson is a long time coming, he hasn't been in the 86 range in years.

[Charles Barkley]

Here is a funny comparison, let's see if you can name the other player Vlade Divac ....




G   GS   MP    FTM-A   FT%   ORB   DRB   TRB   AST   STL   BLK   TOV    PTS
77 70   33.2  2.9 3.4  85.7   0.4     2.1    2.5    1.8    1.4    0.1   1.4    15.7

FGM-A       FG%    3PM-A     3P%    2PM-A     2P%
5.4-11.6    46.3    2.1-5.2    40.1    3.3-6.3   51.4

Versus

G    GS   MP    FTM-A     FT%   ORB  DRB  TRB   AST  STL  BLK   TOV  PTS

79  79   32.6   2.0-2.5   81.5   0.6   2.8    3.4    2.7   0.6   0.1   1.5   15.8



FGM-A     FG%  3PM-A   3P%   2PM-A   2P%

5.8-12.9  45.4  2.1-5.1  40.1   3.8-7.8  48.9

As you can see here, the unknown player shoots better from the FT line, gets there more often, gets 0.9 rebounds less, 0.0 assists less, 0.8 steals more, turnovers, blocks, and points are a wash. 

In nearly identical minutes, the unknown player shoots better from the field, and the same from the 3PT line, and he also shoots much better on 2PT FG's, can you name this player Vlade Divac ?

[Deleted]

I am not going to read all this bullshit because, in most of it, you disregard my major points. Rather I am going to copy and paste what I said before and if you want to address those you can. If you continue to use regular season statistics then we need to agree to disagree.

Jul 22, 2014 12:29:39 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Current Rating: 83
Proposed Rating: 85

I know he's my player now in F5 but I cannot believe we lowered Joe Johnson this much after his strong playoff performance versus the King. In the playoffs, Johnson averaged 21.2 PPG, 3.8 RPG, 2.9 APG, shot 53% from the field, 41.5% from 3, and 83.7% from the FT. Some of you hinted at this but I feel like Johnson's usage more than his skill as declined. The playoff numbers back that up (Johnson played 39.1 MPG in the playoffs versus 32.6 MPG in the regular season.) In support of this idea yet again, Johnson's per 36 minutes statistics actually went from the 2012-2013 season.

Additionally, I don't think people gave his credit even using regular season numbers. He still shot 40% from 3, averaged 15 ppg on a loaded team, and provides a rare combination of speed, strength, and skills. Therefore, I vote to raise Johnson from an 83 to an 85.

More Johnson Stats: www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsjo02.html#all_per_game

Jul 22, 2014 16:44:57 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Jul 22, 2014 14:21:41 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

How did Vlade get on the trade committee with this kind of obvious bias. Thats bullshit, 83 is fine for a guy who shoots 3s and does a little post work. And only averaging 16 points. There weren't that many mouths to feed their best player was out the majority of the season. Joe Johnson has always been a high usage scorer who does nothing else great. He's not the black hole that Rudy Gay is but he's not that amazing either.

Are you shitting me? I am not letting you get away with this fucking bullshit.

You are referencing Rudy Gay who will be raised to an 85 soon. I am not asking for anything more than to put him in that 86 to 84 range. How does that make me bias?

I would also like to attack two of your premises, that all Joe Johnson does is score and the Nets did not have "too many mouths to feed."

#1: Joe Johnson averages 4 assist per game and 4.3 rebounds per game for his career. In addition, he averaged over 4 assist per game 7 of the 13 years he played with a high of 6.5 assist per game.

#2: 12 of the 19 players who played for Brooklyn last year scored over 5 points per game. Sure Johnson, may have been the #2 option but the Nets possessed a lot of depth and needed to get everyone shots.

Again, as I said before, I am arguing that his usage more than his skills have declined. You can agree or disagree with that but please refrain from calling my bias.

PS. For my boy Jhill!

Chris Bosh - 16.2 PPG - 88
Joe Johnson - 15.8 PPG - 83

Jul 22, 2014 18:30:58 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Jul 22, 2014 18:21:29 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

Most veteran players produce more in the playoffs. Rashad Lewis played like shit the whole season and then during the playoffs made some really big plays and averaged more minutes. That doesn't mean we should raise him up to an 80 does it?

Lewis is a little tougher because he didn't play much until the playoffs where as Johnson played well in the regular season but stepped it up in the playoffs. I am not sure how it's so absurd that I am asking for a point or two based on playoff performance but hey whatever. Luckily I resigned from the RC so you can't throw that bullshit "I am bias" crap around every time I give an opinion about a player.

Jul 22, 2014 19:02:05 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Jul 22, 2014 18:32:04 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

Also the difference between regular season and playoffs this year for Joe was 39mpg compared to 32 for the regular season. He shot 53% to 45% which is a hot streak nothing normal. He had a good playoffs no one is arguing that. But if you want to say that he can keep up 53% shooting and 39 mpg a whole season I and anyone else would call you a liar.

THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Man you are difficult! If he averaged 53% shooting he would be like a 90, so no I am not saying that. Rather, I saying we should give him a point or two back from our previous drop because of his playoffs.

As far as you claim of personal attacks, I am soooooooo sick of people misrepresenting my position and personally attacking me. If I am lumping you in with Hill then sorry but right now this is how I feel:

PS.

Playoff Statics:

DeRozan: PPG: 23.9, RPG: 4.1, APG 3.6, MPG: 39.1, FG%: 38.5%, 3P%: 33.3%, FT%: 89.9%.

Johnson: PPG: 21.2, RPG: 3.8, APG: 2.9, MPG: 40.3, FG%: 53.0%, 3P%: 41.5%, FT%: 83.7%.

[Charles Barkley]

Jul 23, 2014 13:43:58 GMT Vlade Divac said:

I am not going to read all this bullshit because, in most of it, you disregard my major points. Rather I am going to copy and paste what I said before and if you want to address those you can. If you continue to use regular season statistics then we need to agree to disagree.
PS.

Playoff Statics:

DeRozan: PPG: 23.9, RPG: 4.1, APG 3.6, MPG: 39.1, FG%: 38.5%, 3P%: 33.3%, FT%: 89.9%.

Johnson: PPG: 21.2, RPG: 3.8, APG: 2.9, MPG: 40.3, FG%: 53.0%, 3P%: 41.5%, FT%: 83.7%.

I read all of that. But the basis of your argument is irrational. Which is ok, since you are irrational.

Let's spell this out for you, playoff stats do not weigh more than regular season stats. If this weren't true, players like Harrison Barnes would be in the mid 80's.

In the playoffs did Joe Johnson show he still had "it"? Yeah. But why hasn't he showed it for the past 4 seasons, either in Brooklyn or in Atlanta, dude hasn't put up 20 PPG since 2009-2010. 

Jodie Meeks had near the same statistical season as Joe Johnson, that was my unknown player. JODIE MEEKS. WHO IS A 74. TAKE YOUR 83 AND JUST BE HAPPY WITH IT. 

The dude didn't have a 2013-2014 year worth an 81, let alone an 83. He gets those extra points because he gets that stupid "benefit of the doubt". 

This is beyond dumb to me. The guy didn't play to the level of an 83 IMO, and yet you want him to be an 85? In what universe is he 1 point better than DeMar DeRozan? Please Explain. In what Universe is Joe Johnson 1 point better than Goran Dragic? Please Explain.

The whole basis of this is that he was good in the playoffs, again, this playoff performance doesn't weight as much when deciding ratings man. No one in here quotes playoff stats and makes that the basis of the argument.

He and Jodie Meeks had nearly the same year, take your 83, walk out the door, and smile. Be Happy. 

And the first rule of any discussion is to not make personal attacks. There's no need for that shit man. 

I destroyed your argument. End of discussion. That's just turrible Ernie. PLain Turrible.

[Deleted]

Jul 23, 2014 14:00:58 GMT Charles Barkley said:

Jul 23, 2014 13:43:58 GMT Vlade Divac said:

I am not going to read all this bullshit because, in most of it, you disregard my major points. Rather I am going to copy and paste what I said before and if you want to address those you can. If you continue to use regular season statistics then we need to agree to disagree.
PS.

Playoff Statics:

DeRozan: PPG: 23.9, RPG: 4.1, APG 3.6, MPG: 39.1, FG%: 38.5%, 3P%: 33.3%, FT%: 89.9%.

Johnson: PPG: 21.2, RPG: 3.8, APG: 2.9, MPG: 40.3, FG%: 53.0%, 3P%: 41.5%, FT%: 83.7%.

I read all of that. But the basis of your argument is irrational. Which is ok, since you are irrational.

Let's spell this out for you, playoff stats do not weigh more than regular season stats. If this weren't true, players like Harrison Barnes would be in the mid 80's.

In the playoffs did Joe Johnson show he still had "it"? Yeah. But why hasn't he showed it for the past 4 seasons, either in Brooklyn or in Atlanta, dude hasn't put up 20 PPG since 2009-2010. 

Jodie Meeks had near the same statistical season as Joe Johnson, that was my unknown player. JODIE MEEKS. WHO IS A 74. TAKE YOUR 83 AND JUST BE HAPPY WITH IT. 

The dude didn't have a 2013-2014 year worth an 81, let alone an 83. He gets those extra points because he gets that stupid "benefit of the doubt". 

This is beyond dumb to me. The guy didn't play to the level of an 83 IMO, and yet you want him to be an 85? In what universe is he 1 point better than DeMar DeRozan? Please Explain. In what Universe is Joe Johnson 1 point better than Goran Dragic? Please Explain.

The whole basis of this is that he was good in the playoffs, again, this playoff performance doesn't weight as much when deciding ratings man. No one in here quotes playoff stats and makes that the basis of the argument.

He and Jodie Meeks had nearly the same year, take your 83, walk out the door, and smile. Be Happy. 

And the first rule of any discussion is to not make personal attacks. There's no need for that shit man. 

I destroyed your argument. End of discussion. That's just turrible Ernie. PLain Turrible.

You are fucking irrational. Seriously! I am updating my signature in this league in honor of you and your clown friend.

Let's spell this out for you, playoff stats do not weigh more than regular season stats. If this weren't true, players like Harrison Barnes would be in the mid 80's.

You are one of the few who thinks Joe Johnson should not be an 83. You obviously hate him (or maybe me?) so that's your prerogative. Here is the formula I am trying to argue:

Joe Johnson deserves an 83 + good playoff performs (where he punked Lebron) 1 or 2 points = 84 or 85. If people disagree fine but quit personally attacking me. To your point, I do agree that you could raise Barnes a point or two based on his playoff performance last year...even though last year could get a little dicey. In the big picture, the playoffs should count for something and should not be considered "an unrepresentative sample" because PLAYERS ACTUALLY PLAY HARD IN THE PLAYOFFS!

Jodie Meeks had near the same statistical season as Joe Johnson, that was my unknown player. JODIE MEEKS. WHO IS A 74. TAKE YOUR 83 AND JUST BE HAPPY WITH IT. 

I am with you, raise Jodie Meeks. I don't think they should be rated the same because of their body of work; Meeks previously averaged 7.9 ppg, 8.4 ppg, and 10.5 ppg while Johnson averaged 16.3 ppg, 18.8 ppg, and 18.2 ppg. For Meeks I would go 80 at the highest but he's still fairly young. Besides we are LOWERING Johnson not raising him. I am simply asking for people to reconsider our lowering of him. Ironically, I think he got less support this time then he did last time after a STELLAR playoff performance. It begs the question, do people really hate me that much?

The dude didn't have a 2013-2014 year worth an 81, let alone an 83. He gets those extra points because he gets that stupid "benefit of the doubt". 

I could tell you have issues with the benefit of the doubt!

This is beyond dumb to me. The guy didn't play to the level of an 83 IMO, and yet you want him to be an 85? In what universe is he 1 point better than DeMar DeRozan? Please Explain. In what Universe is Joe Johnson 1 point better than Goran Dragic? Please Explain.

Dragic will probably get raised again if he keeps playing the way he played last year. You are really radical and impulsive with your rating changes as well as your speech.

The whole basis of this is that he was good in the playoffs, again, this playoff performance doesn't weight as much when deciding ratings man. No one in here quotes playoff stats and makes that the basis of the argument.

Right and if you could read you would realize I am asking for a point or two. Your response would be justified if I wanted Johnson to be a 90 but I don't see that.

He and Jodie Meeks had nearly the same year, take your 83, walk out the door, and smile. Be Happy. 

I addressed this previously and am not going to waste anymore time typing to you.

And the first rule of any discussion is to not make personal attacks. There's no need for that shit man. 

You don't think I get tired of personal attacks? I didn't start it but I can finish it.

Jul 22, 2014 14:21:41 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

How did Vlade get on the trade committee with this kind of obvious bias. Thats bullshit, 83 is fine for a guy who shoots 3s and does a little post work. And only averaging 16 points. There weren't that many mouths to feed their best player was out the majority of the season. Joe Johnson has always been a high usage scorer who does nothing else great. He's not the black hole that Rudy Gay is but he's not that amazing either.

Jul 22, 2014 17:09:00 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

First off that entire Rudy Gay thread was started because of your bullshit cry babying over Josh Smith sucking at helping his team. Rudy Gay sucks and can't hit 3pointers because he won't wear glasses. Chris Bosh's usage went down with LBJ if his useage was higher he would have better stats. No fucking shit. Joe Johnson's minutes went down because he is declining and he can't be counted on to play as long anymore. He's always stunk on defense and hasn't gotten any better. I would say that Steve Nash's skills haven't declined either but that doesn't mean shit because he can't play anymore. Athleticism is part of the OVR and it should be reflected in Joe Johnson's scores. There is no reason he can't put up stats like that in the sim as an 83.

Jul 22, 2014 13:48:04 GMT -5 Coach Hines said:
Vlade Divac Avatar
Jul 22, 2014 13:40:21 GMT -5 Vlade Divac said:
Right, I understand it's not personal. I am doing the research, Coach Hines my friend, so let me correct you on a few things.

#1 (copy and pasted from my original post) - In the playoffs, Johnson averaged 21.2 PPG, 3.8 RPG, 2.9 APG, shot 53% from the field, 41.5% from 3, and 83.7% from the FT. That include games against Toronto!

#2: His per 36 is actually up from two seasons ago which shows we lowered him just a little bit too much.

you are using a very small sample size compared to the much larger, bigger picture, which includes a few years of regular season play. his PER 36 has been on a steady decline since 06-07.


www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsjo02.html

*edit - i see you posted that website with your original post.

if you are going to use that website as a reference, i suggest you look a little harder

Jul 22, 2014 14:02:36 GMT -5 Coach Hines said:
Vlade Divac Avatar
Jul 22, 2014 13:52:34 GMT -5 Vlade Divac said:
It looks to me he went from 08-09 to 09-10:

08-09: 19.5 PPG, 4 RPG, 5.2 APG, 47% from the field, 36% from 3, 1 SPG, .2 BPG, 2.2 TPG.

09-10: 20.2 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 4.6 APG, 49% from the field, 37% from 3, 1 SPG, .1 BPG, 1.8 TPG.

In addition, as I mentioned in my post, he went up from 12-13 to 13-14 big time.

EDIT: I noticed you edited your post to say something about me quoting that site in my post. Basically, you should quit being a little condescending asshole and actually read what I say.
you do understand the concept of a steady decline, right? a little up and down throughout the years, but a downward trend is much more evident. the stats are all on the page, and an argument seems pointless, reallly. let the league decide. i vote an 83, as does, so far, everybody else. numbers dont lie. YOU are the odd one out.

I know im right. And your right Vlade always does this. JJ is lucky to be where he is rating wise. Very unfair to guys like Meeks!!

I read all of that. But the basis of your argument is irrational. Which is ok, since you are irrational.

Jul 23, 2014 14:00:58 GMT Charles Barkley said:

I read all of that. But the basis of your argument is irrational. Which is ok, since you are irrational....I destroyed your argument. End of discussion. That's just turrible Ernie. PLain Turrible.

I destroyed your argument. End of discussion. That's just turrible Ernie. PLain Turrible.

You picked a person to emulate who often uses personal attacks: