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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 3:46:49 GMT
Current Rating: 86
Suggested Rating: 83
I've never been his biggest fan, but when he was putting up 21 points and about 5 boards and assists per game, it was hard to argue against him.
Now, 15.6 points, 3.4 rebounds, 2.7 assists...His %'s are basically in career norms, he has lost a few minutes of PT and is 32 years old. His best years are behind him. 82 is still a solid player, I just honestly can't see him up at an 86 at all right now.
Again, 15 points, 3 boards, 3 assists on 45.4/40.6/82%'s Keep his FT and 3pt pretty high.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 9, 2014 3:48:06 GMT
85
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 3:51:45 GMT
Not to pull a "Vlade" but if he's an 85 we need to look at a LOT of other ratings around here.
So, what makes him an 85?
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Post by Danny Longley on Apr 9, 2014 4:12:23 GMT
If you guys really think that Johnson is still only 1-2 points behind guys like Harden, Paul George and Curry, then that's interesting to say the least.
82 from me.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 4:13:34 GMT
So...Martin scores more, rebounds are about the same, and Johnson gets less than an assist more per game?
I guess to be fair, you left out...
3pt%: 38.5%--40.6% (for their career's, Martin is 1.3% better)
FT%: 89.0%--82% (Martin is 6.9% better in their career)
TO: 1.6--1.5
STL: 1.0--0.6
BLK: 0.1--0.1
Also, career FG% is 44.2 Martin and 44.3 Johnson so I think we can call that a wash.
I'll call it a wash on 3pt even though Martin has been better for their career.
Martin is crazy elite FT guy, Johnson is good.
Everything else, not a huge difference tbh. Rebounds not worth mentioning, Johnson basically wins assists and Martin wins Steals and FT% when you look at everything in context.
I'll stay with my 82.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 4:14:35 GMT
JJ has also made the all-star game 7 times and been on the all-NBA third team and has been a franchise player for the Atlanta Hawks. 85 So based on that argument Billy, Garnett would still be a 90. Come on man, that's weak. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 4:20:56 GMT
Also, if all of Johnson's #'s give him an 85, where would you put this player?
13 / 7.5 / 5.1 / 0.9 stl / 0.7 blk - 45.9/36.1/82.0 - Very athletic player, very good defender who guards 4 positions (not center).
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 4:21:46 GMT
I absolutely love how you jump from season statistics to career statistics. I'll stay with my 85. Yes, when we have 10+ seasons to compare to and both guys are still within ONE PERCENTAGE POINT OF THEIR CAREER #'S, that should just be ignored. I'm the crazy one, right Billy :-) |
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Post by Shaquille O'Neal on Apr 9, 2014 4:31:03 GMT
82
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 9, 2014 5:31:03 GMT
I'm just not entirely sure that Johnson has fully regressed this season. I think it might be a product of having to play in an old man pace offense. Ill look at the numbers, find out the average since their system has been fixed and then ill adjust the rating. But its late that was just the first thing to come to mind.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 12:54:18 GMT
I'm just not entirely sure that Johnson has fully regressed this season. I think it might be a product of having to play in an old man pace offense. Ill look at the numbers, find out the average since their system has been fixed and then ill adjust the rating. But its late that was just the first thing to come to mind. Looking forward to it Jeremiah. Although I think at some point we have to account at least a little for the good old "regular stats" being significantly lower compared to a few years ago. He's not a 21/5/5 guy anymore, I don't believe he can do that consistently anymore, so he should get a decrease, just my opinion. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 13:01:25 GMT
I'm just not entirely sure that Johnson has fully regressed this season. I think it might be a product of having to play in an old man pace offense. Ill look at the numbers, find out the average since their system has been fixed and then ill adjust the rating. But its late that was just the first thing to come to mind. Looking forward to it Jeremiah. Although I think at some point we have to account at least a little for the good old "regular stats" being significantly lower compared to a few years ago. He's not a 21/5/5 guy anymore, I don't believe he can do that consistently anymore, so he should get a decrease, just my opinion. Using the "Chris Bosh scale," I think he's fine at an 86. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 13:05:36 GMT
Looking forward to it Jeremiah. Although I think at some point we have to account at least a little for the good old "regular stats" being significantly lower compared to a few years ago. He's not a 21/5/5 guy anymore, I don't believe he can do that consistently anymore, so he should get a decrease, just my opinion. Using the "Chris Bosh scale," I think he's fine at an 86. Well how about we use the "how good is this player" scale. You think Bosh is an 82 now, so what do you think Johnson is? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 13:12:40 GMT
Using the "Chris Bosh scale," I think he's fine at an 86. Well how about we use the "how good is this player" scale. You think Bosh is an 82 now, so what do you think Johnson is? I refuse to use real basketball logic when people ware living in a fantasy world. Mark my words, I will get Chris Bosh lowered or go down trying. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 13:14:06 GMT
Using the "Chris Bosh scale," I think he's fine at an 86. Well how about we use the "how good is this player" scale. You think Bosh is an 82 now, so what do you think Johnson is? Or, if you would rather, we can use the Coach K argument; "they soooo difference that we cannot compare the two in any way, shape, or form." |
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Apr 9, 2014 13:20:19 GMT
82
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 13:54:00 GMT
hahahaha, jeez man a beast? really? This is an interesting vote so far I will say. 85/86 group and the 82 group. My main opinion is the 85/86 people, that's the way we end up with Raja Bell still being a 79 right now, before his proposed decrease. We need to take some action a little sooner. Johnson is NOT an 86 anymore (that's not just at your Barber, there are a few people in that realm). I guess a parallel could be drawn to the whole Bosh thing, his #'s are down while playing with better teammates, but Bosh is younger while Johnson has some real signs of slowing down, just based on # of years in the league and his age, it's conceivable he's dropped in athleticism if nothing else. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 13:56:29 GMT
I absolutely love how you jump from season statistics to career statistics. I'll stay with my 85. I also absolutely love how you don't post all of the statistics as if 3pt, ft, steals, TO's, and blocks are irrelevant when discussing a player's rating. Heck Johnson even wins this season on 3pt but if you look at their career's it's hard to say either is truly better than the other with their 3pt shot. I just love the cherry-picker stat-posters, it's pretty obvious the reasoning behind it for the most part. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 9, 2014 14:08:13 GMT
Ok, I went on and looked at the numbers, last month when BKN really caught fire he was averaging 17.8ppg, 4rpg 3.1apg 52%FG and 44% from 3. His numbers aren't that much different than his career numbers. I do think he's lost a step which is why I'm not against decreasing him a bit.
Going by my personal scale of where I think certain types of players should be rated. I'm gonna change my rating to an 84. He's never really been much of an above the rim type player who's game was purely predicated on athleticism like someone of Derrick Rose's type. I think Joe Johnson was always more of a fringe all-star type guy anyway.
Superstars 90+
All-Star 85-89
Great Starters 81-84
Starter Caliber 79-80
Good Bench Guys 77-78
3pt Specialist type guys 75-76
Prospects/End of the Bench 69-74
fixed typo.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 14:12:31 GMT
hahahaha, jeez man a beast? really? This is an interesting vote so far I will say. 85/86 group and the 82 group. My main opinion is the 85/86 people, that's the way we end up with Raja Bell still being a 79 right now, before his proposed decrease. We need to take some action a little sooner. Johnson is NOT an 86 anymore (that's not just at your Barber, there are a few people in that realm). I guess a parallel could be drawn to the whole Bosh thing, his #'s are down while playing with better teammates, but Bosh is younger while Johnson has some real signs of slowing down, just based on # of years in the league and his age, it's conceivable he's dropped in athleticism if nothing else. If you're comparing Joe Johnson to Raja Bell, you clearly have not watched Joe Johnson play this season. He is often the entire Brooklyn Nets offense, and can carry the team pretty efficiently. Of course he isn't averaging as much as he was on the Hawks, he is playing in a slower tempo offense with a lot of guys sharing the rock. He is still a great player and should be an 86. HAHA no you are misunderstanding. In general, we are holding on to player's old ratings and what they used to be a little too long. That's why Raja was a 79 THIS SEASON when he should've already been down to like a 75 this season, and then been dropped even further this season. Johnson is not an 86 anymore. 84 gives him the benefit of what he used to be, but 86 is just too high IMO. Keep in mind that's only 4 points away from the best of the best in this league. Is Johnson really THAT good still? I don't see it. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 14:14:39 GMT
Ok, I went on and looked at the numbers, last month when BKN really caught fire he was averaging 17.8ppg, 4rpg 3.1apg 52%FG and 44% from 3. His numbers aren't that much different than his career numbers. I do think he's lost a step which is why I'm not against decreasing him a bit. Going by my personal scale of where I think certain types of players should be rated. I'm gonna change my rating to an 84. He's never really been much of an above the rim type player who's game was purely predicated on athleticism like someone of Derrick Rose's type. I think Joe Johnson was always more of a fringe all-star type guy anyway. Superstars 90+ All-Star 85-89 Great Starters 81-84 Starter Caliber 79-80 Good Bench Guys 77-78 3pt Specialist type guys 75-76 Prospects/End of the Bench 69-74 fixed typo. Exactly why he deserves the drop Jeremiah. 4rpg and 3.1apg compared to what he used to get to earn his high rating (more like 5rpg and 5apg). That alone is the 1-2 point drop that is certainly needed, that I honestly can't believe some people don't see. And that was basically Johnson's best month of the season, let's make sure we think about the ENTIRE season of course. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 14:15:16 GMT
HAHA no you are misunderstanding. In general, we are holding on to player's old ratings and what they used to be a little too long. That's why Raja was a 79 THIS SEASON when he should've already been down to like a 75 this season, and then been dropped even further this season. Johnson is not an 86 anymore. 84 gives him the benefit of what he used to be, but 86 is just too high IMO. Keep in mind that's only 4 points away from the best of the best in this league. Is Johnson really THAT good still? I don't see it. You don't see it because you don't watch any NBA games and base all your ratings on stats that are skewed by tempo and touches  I do watch, sorry to burst your bubble. I'm a Knicks guy which sucks most of the time, but I have seen Brooklyn a fair amount of time. He's not the same player he used to be, plain and simple. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 9, 2014 14:23:28 GMT
If you're comparing Joe Johnson to Raja Bell, you clearly have not watched Joe Johnson play this season. He is often the entire Brooklyn Nets offense, and can carry the team pretty efficiently. Of course he isn't averaging as much as he was on the Hawks, he is playing in a slower tempo offense with a lot of guys sharing the rock. He is still a great player and should be an 86. HAHA no you are misunderstanding. In general, we are holding on to player's old ratings and what they used to be a little too long. That's why Raja was a 79 THIS SEASON when he should've already been down to like a 75 this season, and then been dropped even further this season. Johnson is not an 86 anymore. 84 gives him the benefit of what he used to be, but 86 is just too high IMO. Keep in mind that's only 4 points away from the best of the best in this league. Is Johnson really THAT good still? I don't see it. Where did I say he doesn't deserve a drop? I dropped him from what I consider an allstar caliber player to a high end great starter caliber player. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 14:25:59 GMT
Just what I see on the court, he's not the same guy. And again those #'s Jeremiah posted are from his best month. He's at 3.3 rpg this SEASON and 2.7 apg this SEASON. Not just his best month but the whole season.
Also, I'm sure he got credit for being the ballhandler in Atlanta. Now that he's not, we should account for that.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 14:26:54 GMT
HAHA no you are misunderstanding. In general, we are holding on to player's old ratings and what they used to be a little too long. That's why Raja was a 79 THIS SEASON when he should've already been down to like a 75 this season, and then been dropped even further this season. Johnson is not an 86 anymore. 84 gives him the benefit of what he used to be, but 86 is just too high IMO. Keep in mind that's only 4 points away from the best of the best in this league. Is Johnson really THAT good still? I don't see it. Where did I say he doesn't deserve a drop? I dropped him from what I consider an allstar caliber player to a high end great starter caliber player. I didn't say you didn't? Must have misread or mis-interpreted what I wrote. I was agreeing with your 84 that at least you see why he should get a drop. Noticed I quoted Barber there, not you? |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 9, 2014 14:27:49 GMT
No I didn't notice, my bad.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 14:28:01 GMT
I'm actually gonna change my vote to an 87. The more I think about it, the more I think he has actually improved since his time in Atlanta. His game is one that translates well with age, and he is more efficient and contributes to more wins now. Vlade, is that you? Goodness. 87 for Joe Johnson at this point in his career. CP3, you are now a 167, congrats. Durant and LeBron, 499's! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 15:00:44 GMT
I'm actually gonna change my vote to an 87. The more I think about it, the more I think he has actually improved since his time in Atlanta. His game is one that translates well with age, and he is more efficient and contributes to more wins now. Vlade, is that you? Goodness. 87 for Joe Johnson at this point in his career. CP3, you are now a 167, congrats. Durant and LeBron, 499's! Lol no and I am actually going to change my vote to an 83 to try and encourage the Chris Bosh wall to come down. |
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Post by Mike Krzyzewski on Apr 9, 2014 15:20:06 GMT
82
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Post by Alex English on Apr 9, 2014 17:49:00 GMT
84 for me. He has declined more in usage than skill since leaving Atlanta, but I'm still not a big fan of his game and I don't see much of a difference between what he contributes to a team and what Rudy Gay contributes.
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