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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 7, 2014 14:56:42 GMT
I think that we shouldn't count Vlade's ratings anymore it's getting really stupid. Everything he says is based off of two stats. We all know that points and rebounds aren't the only things that decide how good a player is.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 15:32:15 GMT
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 7, 2014 15:43:11 GMT
This ain't congress.
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Post by James Kay on Apr 7, 2014 18:21:00 GMT
I mean here's what I have to say. Obviously you can't just disregard one GM's opinion. That's not gonna happen.
But Vlade, you're clearly extremely biased towards your own players - especially Gay and Smith. And obviously, yeah, you're gonna stick up for them because you like them - that's why they're on your team.
But when you say things like Josh Smith should be a point higher than Tim Duncan - that's just insane! And it's hard for me to tell if you actually believe these claims you make or you're just exaggerating to get higher ratings or whatever your motive is.
And now you are going through ALLL these stock watch thread's and comparing people to Bosh. Emeka Okafor's stats are not "similar" to Bosh's.
I watch Bosh play ALL the time. Stop telling me to watch Bosh. I want YOU to watch Bosh play because I feel like you don't.
PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WATCH THAT VIDEO. That's from this year - one of the three games he played without Lebron. He went 15-26, 37 points, 10 boards, 3-3 from three.
He's got a great jab-step, elite touch around the rim, amazing offensive awareness and incredible range for a big man.
You have Gay and Smith - two inefficient athletic freaks that don't bring their teams real life success.
You obviously have the right to comment on whatever stock threads you want and this poll is stupid but seriously, check yourself. It's annoying to deal with your obviously biased opinions.
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Post by Ian Noble on Apr 7, 2014 18:56:19 GMT
Whatever the outcome of this poll I'm not going to disallow Vlade from contributing.
I think James Kay's post sums up my feelings though. Blindly attempting to boost your own players all the time is not just irritating, it detracts from the league as a whole.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 19:07:26 GMT
I am not trying to boast my own player. In fact, I never paid attention much to the rating threads, with a few exceptions going back a year or so, until Billy sent me a message saying "you better trade Josh Smith before he's lowered to an 83." At first I couldn't believe people really wanted to lower Josh Smith to an 83 or whatever. I see that his FG % is ridiculously low in DET but still he averages 16 and 6 with lots of assist, steals, and blocks sprinkled in there; how can we justify this position? From the Ibaka precedent a few years ago, 14 and 7 equals an 82 so maybe Smith should be an 85? After arguing for countless hours with people and looking at other ratings that are just absurd, I decided to attack Chris Bosh, who I do hate, from a numerical standpoint.
I have broke his numbers down seven ways to Sunday so I am not going to do that again, but if you look at the numbers Josh Smith's are better than Bosh's and about the same when you factor in FG% and FT%. After this comparison, I started looking for ways to make my point and one of them was to raise Rudy Gay to a 90 since his stats are WAY better than Bosh's. Honestly, I am just going to start looking for players who illustrate my point (see the Blake Griffin thread for another example.) In fact, until somebody can explain to me why we keep Bosh at an 88 and lower Smith to whatever than I am going to keep basing my ratings on what I call "the Chris Bosh scale." Basically, I am with GM's like Wiles and Barber who think we need some type of scale to go off of because most GM's are throwing in absurd ratings for no reason. Again, until I see change I am going to keep using the "Chris Bosh scale" to illuminate my point.
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Post by Ian Noble on Apr 7, 2014 19:10:57 GMT
Ratings aren't all about stats.
Stats help, but they don't represent a lot of players properly. Chris Bosh is a perfect example of that.
There's no single defining factor that we use to decide a player's rating, it's all an amalgamation of what we all perceive to be their impact.
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Post by James Kay on Apr 7, 2014 19:14:06 GMT
one of them was to raise Rudy Gay to a 90 since his stats are WAY better than Bosh's. I just... I can't even...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 19:18:46 GMT
But Vlade, you're clearly extremely biased towards your own players - especially Gay and Smith. And obviously, yeah, you're gonna stick up for them because you like them - that's why they're on your team. No I am not because I do the same thing with Everyone's players and if you want explanation for my rational see the above post. But when you say things like Josh Smith should be a point higher than Tim Duncan - that's just insane! And it's hard for me to tell if you actually believe these claims you make or you're just exaggerating to get higher ratings or whatever your motive is. I remember saying that about Bosh, not Duncan, but all three, statically, are in the same range. Smith- 16/6 Bosh - 16/6 Duncan - 15/10 If 16 and 6 equals an 88 then I think 10 and 8 or whatever equals an 84. Basically, I am comparing any and all player's stats on the "Chris Bosh scale." All he can do is hit a fucking open jumper, whether it be a 3 or a 2. His defense sucks, he is weak, and he cannot create his own shot. Want proof besides his numbers? As far as in the past, he never did anything in Toronto as the man. Sure, his numbers looked good but he never lead a team like Wade and Lebron did.
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Post by Alex English on Apr 7, 2014 19:19:12 GMT
Basically, I am with GM's like Wiles and Barber who think we need some type of scale to go off of because most GM's are throwing in absurd ratings for no reason. I definitely agree there is a problem here as everyone uses their own opinion for what a specific rating is worth. I proposed a scale at the end of last season too: dynasty5ive.proboards.com/thread/2564/player-rating-discussionIt got a little bit of discussion but not much. Maybe now is a good time to look at it again. Or if someone else has another/better idea we can look at that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 19:22:29 GMT
one of them was to raise Rudy Gay to a 90 since his stats are WAY better than Bosh's. I just... I can't even... LOOK AT THE FUCKING NUMBERS! Without their names, tell me which player you would rather have: PLAYER 1: 20 PPG 6 RPG 3 APG 1.3 SPG .8 BPG FG%: 45.8 FT: 82.2 Player 2: 16.5 PPG 6.7 RPG 1.1 APG 1 SPG 1 BPG FG%: 51.9 FT%: 82 IF I AM LEAVING OUT A MEANINGFUL STAT LET ME KNOW AND I WILL UPDATE THIS!!!!!!! Basically, people rate Bosh high because of his name recognition.
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Post by Ian Noble on Apr 7, 2014 20:02:35 GMT
Basically, I am with GM's like Wiles and Barber who think we need some type of scale to go off of because most GM's are throwing in absurd ratings for no reason. I definitely agree there is a problem here as everyone uses their own opinion for what a specific rating is worth. I proposed a scale at the end of last season too: dynasty5ive.proboards.com/thread/2564/player-rating-discussionIt got a little bit of discussion but not much. Maybe now is a good time to look at it again. Or if someone else has another/better idea we can look at that. I think it's good that we don't have a scale. There's flaws to every system and blindly allowing a system to dictate ratings to us will cause it's own problems. From your thread: 85-89: All-Star potential players, these are the next best players who are top 5-10 at their position There's been some pretty crappy All Stars throughout the years. I know I wouldn't want a prime Mo Williams above an 85.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 20:04:32 GMT
I definitely agree there is a problem here as everyone uses their own opinion for what a specific rating is worth. I proposed a scale at the end of last season too: dynasty5ive.proboards.com/thread/2564/player-rating-discussionIt got a little bit of discussion but not much. Maybe now is a good time to look at it again. Or if someone else has another/better idea we can look at that. I think it's good that we don't have a scale. There's flaws to every system and blindly allowing a system to dictate ratings to us will cause it's own problems. From your thread: 85-89: All-Star potential players, these are the next best players who are top 5-10 at their position There's been some pretty crappy All Stars throughout the years. I know I wouldn't want a prime Mo Williams above an 85. I think need to throw the term "All-Star" out all together because it means nothing. PS to James Kay: I am still waiting for your answer to my post.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 7, 2014 21:20:47 GMT
If I'm not mistaken wasn't Bosh playing with a pretty severe abdominal strain during that series?
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Bob McAdoo
Former Pistons GM
Rookie
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Post by Bob McAdoo on Apr 7, 2014 22:47:34 GMT
I think that we shouldn't count Vlade's ratings anymore it's getting really stupid. Everything he says is based off of two stats. We all know that points and rebounds aren't the only things that decide how good a player is Chris Bosh, and his undying hatred thereof. FIFY
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 22:51:36 GMT
I think that we shouldn't count Vlade's ratings anymore it's getting really stupid. Everything he says is based off of two stats. We all know that points and rebounds aren't the only things that decide how good a player is Chris Bosh, and his undying hatred thereof. FIFY
BobREFUTE ME IF I AM WRONG YOU POMPOUS SON OF A BITCH!
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Post by Charles Barkley on Apr 7, 2014 23:51:11 GMT
I think the problem with this whole fiasco is the fact that some players are overrated currently. This causes an inflated baseline when comparing players to their peers. And that leads to the 16/6 being an 88 or 87 which Bosh and Smith are and 15/10 being an 86 which Duncan and Pau are. (That is just one scenario among many)
Now, we could establish a rule of X and Y equals a rating of N but like Ian said, some players don't fall in to this equation. It's a complicated matter as we have 30 different people with, usually, 30 different opinions about a player. So we all vote, and then make the rating change to the average. But what happens when there is a very large standard deviation among one player's rating? What do we do then?
The simplest system seems to be the one we have, the problem is (from my viewpoint) that the rating's were always going up and hardly ever going down. We need to stay current on the nerfing of players. It is a stock watch, stocks go up, stocks go down. If a player under performs for an entire year, they need decreased. If they bounce back, put them in for an increase and boost them back up. Another problem is that GM's don't want to be honest about their own players. I mean, who wants to have their own guy decreased. The general, unspoken rule seems to be GM's increase their own players. Maybe we need a committee to stay on top of the rating decreases so that we have current ratings to establish a baseline and do the best we can to eliminate rating inflation. A larger committee would get a larger sample size of GM's and thus more opinions on who should be up for decreases.
Just my 2 cents
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Bob McAdoo
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Post by Bob McAdoo on Apr 8, 2014 0:25:02 GMT
Hey Charles, I think the volume of potential changes is too great for the current ad hoc system. I would wager that Ian could easily spend all of his time working the issue. Are the actual ratings that the game comes out with every year that far off based on the year before?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 0:27:01 GMT
In all honesty, lol, I think it helps our participation in the league to argue over ratings.
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Bob McAdoo
Former Pistons GM
Rookie
Posts: 168
Jan 1, 2015 19:27:55 GMT
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Post by Bob McAdoo on Apr 8, 2014 1:20:13 GMT
REFUTE ME IF I AM WRONG YOU POMPOUS SON OF A BITCH! OK, one last time then I'm done with you. By the way, I voted for your opinion to still be counted above, because free speech.
Refutation begins - you said on the Blake Griffin thread:Again, keep in mind my ratings are based on the "Chris Bosh scale." You are picking an arbitrary reference point from which to judge ALL other players. There are 420+ possible player reference points you could have chosen. You have also chosen a reference point that you disagree with, just to keep making a point at the expense of every other discussion on the site. The fact that you won't stop talking about EVERY. FUCKING. THING. in terms of CB4 means that you have no objectivity and are fair game to get poked, as I did above.
If anyone has a right to bitch about CB4 rated at an 88, it's the guy with Tim Duncan at an 86, not you.
Which brings me to my last point, a small twist on an Internet meme: You aren't completely wrong, you're just an asshole.
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Post by Clyde Drexler on Apr 8, 2014 2:04:26 GMT
If anyone has a right to bitch about CB4 rated at an 88, it's the guy with Tim Duncan at an 86, not you.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 3:29:27 GMT
REFUTE ME IF I AM WRONG YOU POMPOUS SON OF A BITCH! OK, one last time then I'm done with you. By the way, I voted for your opinion to still be counted above, because free speech.
Refutation begins - you said on the Blake Griffin thread:Again, keep in mind my ratings are based on the "Chris Bosh scale." You are picking an arbitrary reference point from which to judge ALL other players. There are 420+ possible player reference points you could have chosen. You have also chosen a reference point that you disagree with, just to keep making a point at the expense of every other discussion on the site. The fact that you won't stop talking about EVERY. FUCKING. THING. in terms of CB4 means that you have no objectivity and are fair game to get poked, as I did above.
If anyone has a right to bitch about CB4 rated at an 88, it's the guy with Tim Duncan at an 86, not you.
Which brings me to my last point, a small twist on an Internet meme: You aren't completely wrong, you're just an asshole. Okay let me rephrase the question then; give me an example of at least one of the "419 possible player reference points" that could refute me. Also, I am not familiar with the new stat shit so keep in that mind. PS. I don't think anyone SERIOUSLY would not want my opinion to count.
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Post by Mike Krzyzewski on Apr 8, 2014 12:41:04 GMT
My head hurts after reading through this.
My 2 cents...
Vlade,
You are certainly entitled to your opinion just as everyone else here on this site. With that being said, your opinion varies greatly from what most of the folks on here think/believe, especially as it relates to a few players such as Smith, Duncan, Bosh and Gay. I didn't vote but would certainly vote for your opinion to be counted.
Your differing opinion is ok but all the name calling, cursing, CAPS, and colors in your posts make you look like a child who can't defend their own stance without yelling and pitching a fit. You would be much better served by debating instead of ranting. And yes, when you say the same thing over and over in many different threads, in is ranting.
Take that for what it is worth. Get upset with my response if you like or take it to heart. Your decision.
Good luck going forward.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 12:58:12 GMT
My head hurts after reading through this. My 2 cents... Vlade, You are certainly entitled to your opinion just as everyone else here on this site. With that being said, your opinion varies greatly from what most of the folks on here think/believe, especially as it relates to a few players such as Smith, Duncan, Bosh and Gay. I didn't vote but would certainly vote for your opinion to be counted. Your differing opinion is ok but all the name calling, cursing, CAPS, and colors in your posts make you look like a child who can't defend their own stance without yelling and pitching a fit. You would be much better served by debating instead of ranting. And yes, when you say the same thing over and over in many different threads, in is ranting. Take that for what it is worth. Get upset with my response if you like or take it to heart. Your decision. Good luck going forward. Two things: #1 - I didn't vote either because it's a joke. #2 - You need to read ALL the threads because I get sick of people taking personal shots at me, over and over, so I started to defend myself. Also, I say the same thing over and over because no one has yet to refute my facts nor change their ratings on certain players. Why would I get upset? I really would like for you to answer this if you are able to. Much love my Pacific Division Rival!
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 8, 2014 13:04:44 GMT
My head hurts after reading through this. My 2 cents... Vlade, You are certainly entitled to your opinion just as everyone else here on this site. With that being said, your opinion varies greatly from what most of the folks on here think/believe, especially as it relates to a few players such as Smith, Duncan, Bosh and Gay. I didn't vote but would certainly vote for your opinion to be counted. Your differing opinion is ok but all the name calling, cursing, CAPS, and colors in your posts make you look like a child who can't defend their own stance without yelling and pitching a fit. You would be much better served by debating instead of ranting. And yes, when you say the same thing over and over in many different threads, in is ranting. Take that for what it is worth. Get upset with my response if you like or take it to heart. Your decision. Good luck going forward. Two things: #1 - I didn't vote either because it's a joke. #2 - You need to read ALL the threads because I get sick of people taking personal shots at me, over and over, so I started to defend myself. Also, I say the same thing over and over because no one has yet to refute my facts nor change their ratings on certain players. Why would I get upset? I really would like for you to answer this if you are able to. Much love my Pacific Division Rival! No one took personal shots at you until you started taking them at other people. Also it is a blatant lie when you say no one has refuted your facts, because you have propose two facts, it was explained why that was stupid to look at it in that light by multiple people using multiple different methods. So either you just can't read or you deliberately are just ignoring things because you are butt hurt on of your players got decreased.
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Post by Mike Krzyzewski on Apr 8, 2014 13:07:43 GMT
"Why would I get upset? I really would like for you to answer this if you are able to." - Vlade
I don't know and hopefully you are not but your posts certainly come across as you are.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 13:48:54 GMT
"Why would I get upset? I really would like for you to answer this if you are able to." - Vlade I don't know and hopefully you are not but your posts certainly come across as you are. "All the world's a stage and we are merely players." - Williams Shakespeare
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 13:50:42 GMT
Two things: #1 - I didn't vote either because it's a joke. #2 - You need to read ALL the threads because I get sick of people taking personal shots at me, over and over, so I started to defend myself. Also, I say the same thing over and over because no one has yet to refute my facts nor change their ratings on certain players. Why would I get upset? I really would like for you to answer this if you are able to. Much love my Pacific Division Rival! No one took personal shots at you until you started taking them at other people. Also it is a blatant lie when you say no one has refuted your facts, because you have propose two facts, it was explained why that was stupid to look at it in that light by multiple people using multiple different methods. So either you just can't read or you deliberately are just ignoring things because you are butt hurt on of your players got decreased. I would say you are lying but you hold the position every time we have a conversation, so, per Mike's advice, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Therefore, we are speaking different languages. Я говорю по-русски?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 13:50:53 GMT
Two things: #1 - I didn't vote either because it's a joke. #2 - You need to read ALL the threads because I get sick of people taking personal shots at me, over and over, so I started to defend myself. Also, I say the same thing over and over because no one has yet to refute my facts nor change their ratings on certain players. Why would I get upset? I really would like for you to answer this if you are able to. Much love my Pacific Division Rival! No one took personal shots at you until you started taking them at other people. Also it is a blatant lie when you say no one has refuted your facts, because you have propose two facts, it was explained why that was stupid to look at it in that light by multiple people using multiple different methods. So either you just can't read or you deliberately are just ignoring things because you are butt hurt on of your players got decreased. I would say you are lying but you hold the position every time we have a conversation, so, per Mike's advice, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Therefore, we are speaking different languages. Я говорю по-русски?
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 8, 2014 13:58:25 GMT
Point is that your guy got lowered and you are mad about it. You do not have a proper amount of evidence supporting your "Bosh Sucks" Movement. Just drop it. People voted and you didn't win. Boo hoo. Put up another thread when Smith starts playing better than Nick Young.
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