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Post by Arvydas Sabonis on Jan 13, 2022 18:54:14 GMT
There is just too much discussion going on in Discord if Durant/Giddey/Wiggins/Trae/whoever should be allowed to play center or Drummond PF, or whatever. So it's clear that this rule needs some clarification.
This would help to keep the depth charts realistic for both contenders (playing unrealistic positions that break the sim) and prevent tankers for some ridiculous lineups made just with the intention of losing
Proposal: - you can set players primary position to a one where he has played at least 5% in either current or previous season - you can set players secondary position to a one where he has played at least 1% in either current or previous season
source for the position % is bb-reference. No need to program this to depth chart. Other GM's will point out rule breaking
This is obviously not perfect but should close some biggest loopholes and misuses
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Post by Jerry West on Jan 13, 2022 18:57:06 GMT
Bball ref isn't always correct on their numbers. In 2018, 19 and 20 Draymond never logged more than 5% of his minutes at Center. But somehow had 48, 59 and 23% in those years at SF, which simply isn't true for anyone who watched basketball.
So I don't think BBall ref is a good place to go by unless it fits narrative.
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jan 13, 2022 18:59:57 GMT
support
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Jan 13, 2022 19:07:34 GMT
support
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Amare Stoudemire
Sacramento Kings
Starter
Posts: 2,416
Apr 14, 2024 11:04:23 GMT
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Post by Amare Stoudemire on Jan 13, 2022 19:20:38 GMT
Support
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Post by George Gervin on Jan 13, 2022 19:29:04 GMT
Support, with a caveat— to Jerry’s point, I believe the NBA itself has tracking data for this as well that may be a better gauge than basketball reference. I’ll see if I can find the link to it but I agree that some of these decisions to play guys out of position are becoming unsupportable to justify
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Post by Arvydas Sabonis on Jan 13, 2022 19:32:54 GMT
Bball ref isn't always correct on their numbers. In 2018, 19 and 20 Draymond never logged more than 5% of his minutes at Center. But somehow had 48, 59 and 23% in those years at SF, which simply isn't true for anyone who watched basketball. So I don't think BBall ref is a good place to go by unless it fits narrative. On those years GSW had many players who only could play center McGee, Looney, DMC, Bogut, Damion Jones, WCS, David West Zaza... So although none of them played huge minutes they filled the 48min, and Dray played only at center when really needed.
But he had in every year at least 1% center minutes. So positions that would be allowed are PF/C, SF/PF, PF,SF or even SF/C. Just not C/PF would not be allowed (in those years), which is in a way realistic as Center was never his main position.
This year he has played 5% SF, 79% PF and 16% C, so any of the positions could be primary.
Of course bb-ref is not perfect, but I bet the situations where this would not work are super rare. And only for players who for whatever reason play a lot in non ideal position for them.
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Post by Mark Price on Jan 14, 2022 0:36:06 GMT
Against. And I’m not sure I could be more against a rule proposal.
According to these rules you couldn’t play DeMar DeRozan as a shooting guard. This is dumb.
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Post by George Gervin on Jan 14, 2022 1:09:25 GMT
Against. And I’m not sure I could be more against a rule proposal. According to these rules you couldn’t play DeMar DeRozan as a shooting guard. This is dumb. DeMar is a bad example IMO— per tracking data, he hasn’t logged any PT at SG since he was with the Spurs in his first season there back in 2018. His last three seasons, including this one, has seen him log minutes exclusively at SF, PF, and C
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Post by Jerry West on Jan 14, 2022 1:23:36 GMT
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Post by Alex English on Jan 14, 2022 1:32:47 GMT
Why is Day'ron Sharpe at G and Bembry at C? I think that lineup is clearly wrong and Robinson-Earl is the C for OKC, like Sharpe obviously is for Brooklyn.
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Post by Jerry West on Jan 14, 2022 1:41:13 GMT
Alex English that is clear photoshop you have there on the Brooklyn side
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Chris Mullin
Golden State Warriors
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Posts: 1,303
Feb 19, 2024 21:58:28 GMT
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Post by Chris Mullin on Jan 14, 2022 5:35:36 GMT
Honestly, I really don't care what we decide here. If other GM's are upset that I'm playing KD at Center based on the suggested guidelines I can continue to play him there because he's play almost 40% at Center this year. Is it really soooo unrealistic to play Andre Drummond at PF? KD is 6'10, Drummond is 6'10. Is this really some huge advantage?
There's also the the factor of basing all of this on real life. A team's makeup IRL, is and can be different than our team makeups here in D5. For example, what if a team in D5 gets 2 really good Centers that only play 100% Center IRL. You're telling me they can't play 1 of them as a PF to get their best players on the floor as much as possible? Memphis did it for years with KAT & Jokic, nobody said a word. I played Pau Gasol at PF for years, despite at that point in his career he was playing almost 100% of his time at Center IRL. Nobody had an issue with that.
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Post by Tom Izzo on Jan 14, 2022 6:21:51 GMT
The Cavs have been playing Allen/Markkanen/Mobley in real life to Chris's point. Who is the SF and who is the C? If a D5 ended up with these players would there have been prevention against starting Lauri at SF?
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Post by Jared Montini on Jan 14, 2022 12:17:44 GMT
The Cavs have been playing Allen/Markkanen/Mobley in real life to Chris's point. Who is the SF and who is the C? If a D5 ended up with these players would there have been prevention against starting Lauri at SF? with our rules tho since Marksnen played small forward he can also play shooting guard.
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Post by Mark Price on Jan 14, 2022 15:00:18 GMT
The Cavs have been playing Allen/Markkanen/Mobley in real life to Chris's point. Who is the SF and who is the C? If a D5 ended up with these players would there have been prevention against starting Lauri at SF? with our rules tho since Marksnen played small forward he can also play shooting guard. He can't. Bball-ref (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/markkla01.html) has him playing 0% of his minutes this season at SF and only 2% last season. As someone who watches and blogs about every Cavs game, I can tell you he plays SF functionally on offense, but he often guards the second tallest player on the other team which is why the database gives him the designation of being just a PF. We already have limited control over our team and are working in a game that was made in 2005 where defined basketball positions meant much more than they do now. It wasn't an era where SFs like LeBron were running the point and guarding other small forwards. Those nuances were missed due to the quality of video games and the more cut and dry nature of basketball. Making it so GMs can't put their best players in the best place to succeed because of their fit on their real life team which doesn't resemble their D5 team is dumb. Giannis can only start at PF and C in this model. Unfortunately, those positions in D5 might take the ball out of his hands which isn't what you'd want just because NBA Live 05 thinks that PFs and Cs play with their back to the basket. LeBron's best position is point guard and he's been the de facto point guard on every team he's ever played on. But under this rule he could only play that position here in 04, 05, 20, 21, and 22. These are just two examples, but they point to a larger issue this causes. Basketball is positionless. Weird and untraditional position groups can succeed. Limiting what GMs can do is dumb. Also, tanking has always been a big problem in the league. Making it so GMs can't play people out of position won't magically make those teams good and get rid of the issue. I'm not sure who this whole thing is trying to target, but it's dumb.
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Post by Jerry West on Jan 14, 2022 16:13:20 GMT
Mark Price I couldn't agree more with what you said, just a small foot note, teams are using this to win, not to lose. That said I still think it's pointless to change the rules
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Post by Arvydas Sabonis on Jan 14, 2022 17:21:16 GMT
The Cavs have been playing Allen/Markkanen/Mobley in real life to Chris's point. Who is the SF and who is the C? If a D5 ended up with these players would there have been prevention against starting Lauri at SF? with our rules tho since Marksnen played small forward he can also play shooting guard. Bbref considers Mobley SF and Lauri PF if they play with Allen, which is bit weird...so it's not ideal. But it would be ridiculous that either Mobley or Lauri would be allowed to play SG like current rules allows
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Post by Arvydas Sabonis on Jan 14, 2022 17:22:56 GMT
Mark Price I couldn't agree more with what you said, just a small foot note, teams are using this to win, not to lose. That said I still think it's pointless to change the rules I did use it to lose last year but it was not maybe super obvious. Semi Ojele was playing center a lot
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Post by Alex English on Jan 14, 2022 19:23:32 GMT
Not that I'm really in favour of the rule, because I think plausible lineups should be allowed and that may be different from what happens in the NBA, but the Basketball Reference position breakdown is awful. 82games.com/ is much better.
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Larry Bird
Indiana Pacers
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Posts: 1,672
Mar 5, 2024 13:29:26 GMT
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Post by Larry Bird on Jan 14, 2022 20:38:36 GMT
Arnt we going toward positionless basketball?
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Post by Arvydas Sabonis on Jun 3, 2022 16:17:20 GMT
Bump for this proposal since we see again with the Cavs depth chart discussion that rule refinement is needed
This change would remove completely ridiculous lineups like Justin Holiday starting at Center (even if he is somehow marked to play it for few minutes irl)
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