Khris Middleton

[James Kay]

Current: 84
Suggested: 87-88

Per game: 19.4 points, 5.7 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 1 steal.

Per36: 24.6 points , 7.3 rebounds, 4.8 assists, 1.2 steals.


His per game stats are slightly deflated, as he is only playing 28 minutes per game, the lowest in his career - the Bucks are blowing everyone out with the highest net rating and highest average margin of victory and best record in the league. However, per36 he's putting up per36 career highs in points, rebounds, and nearly assists as well. He also has career highs in: 2P%, TS%, AST%, TRB%, BPM, WS/48, PER, and USG%.

Nearly at 50/40/90, Middleton is shooting 49/41/89 - he's a bucket from all over the floor, shooting 50% from mid-range, good for 4th in the league.

He's the clear Robin to Giannis's Batman (though shout-out Bledsoe who's also been having a great season).

[Tom Izzo]

85

[Amare Stoudemire]

87

[George Gervin]

86– sneaky good player who just does his job.

[Jerry West]

85

[Walt Frazier]

86.5

[Jared Montini]

86

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

88

[Tim Duncan]

86

[Bryan Colangelo]

87

[Brian Scalabrine]

86

[Kevin Hollis]

85

[Jeremiah Hill]

85

[James Kay]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/etbitw/only_10_players_in_the_league_are_averaging_over

[Tom Izzo]

Middleton is having a great year, but I think this is a result of playing with Giannis. If you research advanced stats, you're going to see a lot of Milwaukee players topping the charts. The Giannis effect is real, and I think Middleton is a result of that. Of course, he's playing better too. But just like with Draymond, if you remove those star players, I'm not sure Middleton could replicate these stats.

[James Kay]

Jan 24, 2020 23:01:59 GMT Tom Izzo said:

Middleton is having a great year, but I think this is a result of playing with Giannis. If you research advanced stats, you're going to see a lot of Milwaukee players topping the charts. The Giannis effect is real, and I think Middleton is a result of that. Of course, he's playing better too. But just like with Draymond, if you remove those star players, I'm not sure Middleton could replicate these stats.

lol I just posted his TS% and USG%, idk how much that has to do with Giannis

[Tom Izzo]

Lol

[James Kay]

Jan 25, 2020 0:01:31 GMT Tom Izzo said:

Lol

lol

[James Kay]

Jan 25, 2020 0:01:31 GMT Tom Izzo said:

Lol

Wanna explain how Giannis is increasing Khris’s USG%?

[Tom Izzo]

Advanced stats are just a piece of what we should utilize to analyze players. This isn't baseball. This is a team game. When you have a player like Giannis, the defense is going to make him their number one priority. Sometimes a defense may completely neglect an offensive player to focus on someone else. Sometimes a team will double or triple team a player, meaning there will be someone open to shoot.

Usage percentage is just a measurement to determine how often a team's plays end with that player. A good team with a star player like Giannis who draws the attention of the defense should be able to create shots for other members.

And what do you know, Giannis has a creation rate of 58% this season. He only trails Luka, LeBron, Trae Young, and Harden for creation rate this year while also ranking dead last among them in time of possession rate. Or in other words, he's creating points for his team despite having the ball less often.

All this to say, if you think that having generational talent on the floor with you has no impact to your game then idk what to tell you.

Lol

[James Kay]

Jan 25, 2020 0:32:11 GMT Tom Izzo said:

Advanced stats are just a piece of what we should utilize to analyze players. This isn't baseball. This is a team game. When you have a player like Giannis, the defense is going to make him their number one priority. Sometimes a defense may completely neglect an offensive player to focus on someone else. Sometimes a team will double or triple team a player, meaning there will be someone open to shoot.

Usage percentage is just a measurement to determine how often a team's plays end with that player. A good team with a star player like Giannis who draws the attention of the defense should be able to create shots for other members.

And what do you know, Giannis has a creation rate of 58% this season. He only trails Luka, LeBron, Trae Young, and Harden for creation rate this year while also ranking dead last among them in time of possession rate. Or in other words, he's creating points for his team despite having the ball less often.

All this to say, if you think that having generational talent on the floor with you has no impact to your game then idk what to tell you.

Lol

Completely agree.

But as far as advanced stats go, USG% is one of the most removed from teammate impact. Just because you have a skilled play creator on your team doesn't mean that your USG% will just increase alongside their play creation. And if we're going to write off the accomplishments of players as simply the by-product of their star team-mates, there are a lot of players we'll have to re-evaluate.

Let's look at AD - he's playing with Lebron now but two years ago he had a higher USG%$ and TS%. These stats don't automatically increase because your teammate is a top 3-5 player in the NBA.

I posted about his USG% and TS% because those are much less impacted by teammate presence than advanced stats that incorporate on/off numbers like BPM, RAPTOR, etc, which are much more susceptible to influence from playing with generational talents (in which Middleton rates very highly).

OBVIOUSLY playing with good teammates will increase your stats. That doesn't mean you get to write them off "lol he plays with Giannis."

Also I love how this post completely contradicts your most recent assessment of Draymond. It's a team game but we should ignore the fact that Draymond's team is god awful. In which I reply, "if you think that having garbage talent on the floor with you has no impact to your game then idk what to tell you."

[Tom Izzo]

How is this contradictory at all? This is just indicative that Draymond's game was helped by the addition of Steph and Klay, All-Time great shooters. And now without them, he's not capable of producing. This is to say that Steph and Klay elevated Draymond. How is that deserving of an 85?

My entire point is that star players make people around them better in multiple ways. What we have to do is rate those players independent of the real-life system that they are in to try to achieve as close to possible representation of that player's actual skillset.

[James Kay]

Jan 25, 2020 1:05:05 GMT Tom Izzo said:

How is this contradictory at all? This is just indicative that Draymond's game was helped by the addition of Steph and Klay, All-Time great shooters. And now without them, he's not capable of producing. This is to say that Steph and Klay elevated Draymond. How is that deserving of an 85?

My entire point is that star players make people around them better in multiple ways. What we have to do is rate those players independent of the real-life system that they are in to try to achieve as close to possible representation of that player's actual skillset.

Because players' games don't exist in vacuums.

Let's say, in an exaggerated hypothetical:

Player A puts up, objectively, "80" rating stats on a bad team, and "85" stats on a good team.

Player B puts up, objectively, "75" rating stats on a a bad team, and "90" stats on a good team.

Player A is still able to put up decent stats when his teammates are bad, but when he's playing with good teammates, his game isn't as elevated.

Player B isn't really able to carry a team on his own, but when he plays with a good team, his strengths are more pronounced.

How do you properly rate these players when they are outside of their IRL circumstances? We shouldn't punish a D5 team because their B archetype player has been thrust onto, in Draymond's case, the worst team in the league.


I'm willing to give the 29 year old, 3 time champion, 3 time all star, former DPOY, 3 time all-NBA defensive first team, 2 time all-NBA defensive second team some fucking benefit of the doubt.

[Tom Izzo]

All you're doing is suggesting that Draymond is a product of his environment, or a role player who can fit with certain types of players. A player who shines when he is surrounded by all-time greats.

And in D5 what if he isn't surrounded by those types of players? His D5 rating, value, and production doesn't mirror what it would be in real life without that talent around him. We're seeing it right now. Draymond without Steph and Klay is a pretty average player.

I suppose my definition of an 85 is someone who is objectively good on their own and is an All-Star caliber player. It's been almost half a year and Draymond Green, sadly, doesn't fit that definition this year. And more so to my overall point, players whose games are elevated based on the system and players they play with are completely reliant on that system, not their own skill. We should recognize that and do our best to adjust our ratings because our players here are rarely going to be playing with the same system/players they do in real life.

[James Kay]

Jan 25, 2020 1:40:23 GMT Tom Izzo said:

All you're doing is suggesting that Draymond is a product of his environment, or a role player who can fit with certain types of players. A player who shines when he is surrounded by all-time greats.

And in D5 what if he isn't surrounded by those types of players? His D5 rating, value, and production doesn't mirror what it would be in real life without that talent around him. We're seeing it right now. Draymond without Steph and Klay is a pretty average player.

I suppose my definition of an 85 is someone who is objectively good on their own and is an All-Star caliber player. It's been almost half a year and Draymond Green, sadly, doesn't fit that definition this year. And more so to my overall point, players whose games are elevated based on the system and players they play with are completely reliant on that system, not their own skill. We should recognize that and do our best to adjust our ratings because our players here are rarely going to be playing with the same system/players they do in real life.

Your argument is incoherent because you're 1) not comprehending what I'm saying and/or 2) completely ignoring the opposite scenario.

Let's say we rate Draymond a 79. Draymond (in D5), then gets traded from the Pacers to a team with fantastic shooters at the 1 and 2, let's say a team with Trae Young and Bradley Beal. His 79 would not reflect the impact he is able to give to a team when he is on the court with them. Elevating your impact when on the court with skilled players is a skill in itself.

"We should recognize that and do our best to adjust our ratings because our players here are rarely going to be playing with the same system/players they do in real life."

... Exactly.

[Larry Bird]

Why is all this negative shade being thrown at Draymond?

[Jared Montini]

Jan 25, 2020 2:40:17 GMT Larry Bird said:

Why is all this negative shade being thrown at Draymond?

because he’s averaging 8-6-5 on 38% and 28% from 3. Dude is not an 85 but this is not his thread

[James Kay]

Jan 24, 2020 23:01:59 GMT Tom Izzo said:

Middleton is having a great year, but I think this is a result of playing with Giannis. If you research advanced stats, you're going to see a lot of Milwaukee players topping the charts. The Giannis effect is real, and I think Middleton is a result of that. Of course, he's playing better too. But just like with Draymond, if you remove those star players, I'm not sure Middleton could replicate these stats.

You're right, apparently if you remove Giannis, Middleton can only put up 51/10/6.

[James Kay]

But yeah... only playing like an 85 right now

[Tom Izzo]

"Today in overreactions from D5 members after one game" 🙄

But in all seriousness, Middleton played an amazing game tonight. That type of production is worthy of his contract and if he can sustain it he's truly elevated his game.