Vlade Divac
Former Kings GM
Sophomore
Posts: 629
Feb 23, 2024 23:40:50 GMT
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Post by Vlade Divac on Jul 24, 2017 23:32:25 GMT
Jrs just stated that he never has drafted before and that he doesn't ever wanna draft. I wasn't in the league but didn't his pick end up top 5 1 year. He's trading the best player in this deal and his teams not getting any better. No one on his teams gonna increase because he doesn't draft rookies. that whole not drafting scares me a bit I think it was year two because Tim Duncan left him after year one.
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Post by Jared Montini on Jul 24, 2017 23:36:01 GMT
Jrs just stated that he never has drafted before and that he doesn't ever wanna draft. I wasn't in the league but didn't his pick end up top 5 1 year. He's trading the best player in this deal and his teams not getting any better. No one on his teams gonna increase because he doesn't draft rookies. that whole not drafting scares me a bit I think it was year two because Tim Duncan left him after year one. Yeah because he trashed Duncan then expected to sign him. Thats why you gotta keep picks
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Vlade Divac
Former Kings GM
Sophomore
Posts: 629
Feb 23, 2024 23:40:50 GMT
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Post by Vlade Divac on Jul 25, 2017 0:14:24 GMT
I think it was year two because Tim Duncan left him after year one. Yeah because he trashed Duncan then expected to sign him. Thats why you gotta keep picks Lol he is going to go off on you...just sayin'!
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Post by Jared Montini on Jul 25, 2017 0:15:04 GMT
Yeah because he trashed Duncan then expected to sign him. Thats why you gotta keep picks Lol he is going to go off on you...just sayin'! Ill be ready
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 25, 2017 2:51:55 GMT
I'm with Alex. And Scalabrine too (though Brian isn't a TC voter).
I can't believe JR gave a 2019 1st for Jrue. Traded Jrue for Gay but also took back multiple bad-ish contracts. Then trades Gay plus a 1st for Jrue and a 1-year rental ZBo?
At some point I gotta put my damn foot down. Basically we're at 2 1sts for 1 year (plus a small-ish playoff run last year) of Jrue and 1-year rental of ZBo, like Scal laid out.
Oh, didn't even talk about the Millsap vs. Horford thing yet.
Anyway, for reasons stated above and by Alex/Scal - REJECT.
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Post by Ian Noble on Jul 25, 2017 8:54:39 GMT
I think this crosses the line as well. There is definitely an argument that teams should be allowed to get ripped off if they still look ok afterwards, but that has to be within certain boundaries. I reject. A year ago JR Wiles, you did well in free agency and picked up some players that others were neglecting, this off season in particular though has been a process of undoing those positive steps with no long-term (or short-term) reward in mind.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 25, 2017 9:09:03 GMT
I get it if JR never wants to draft but he could at least be smart and wait until the end of the season to trade the picks when they have peak value. Aside from that, isn't the draft like 30% of being a GM, 30% trading, 30% signing free agents and like 10% actually bothering to look up stats before doing those things?
I said the Rose contract was stupid when it was signed and I maintain that I was correct. 2.1 million 1 year deal is his real life value and that's with the insane contracts people are getting nowadays. If he manages to play 60 games and do OK in the playoffs his next deal might be worth 6-10 mil per year.
Anyways, back to the trade:
Horford in my opinion is the better player right now, a year younger than Millsap. That makes sense.
Observations:
Why is every trash contract going to JR? He gets a slight upgrade at the center position and a starter PF. But loses two starters in the process.
Josh Barber gives up literally garbage in exchange for a free 1st round pick.
Toronto gives up the slightly better player and a young borderline starter in exchange for decent bench players.
My question:
Why does this deal even have Josh Barber in it at all? Seems like you could do Millsap, a few bench guys for Horford, Olynyk and a bench guy or two and the salaries would be kosher and the value swinging around would make much more sense.
I don't know how you get people to agree to these stupid trades Josh but I wish I had that skill.
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jul 25, 2017 11:26:52 GMT
I guess this is rejected but it really is pretty fair value if you look at it in a vacuum. This isn't ruining any franchises and no one is at risk to quit the league. JR is trading a draft pick for a chance to compete, which seems like one of the most basic trades you can even make in a sim league.
A bit has been brought up about Rivers and Plumlee contracts. Just for the record, JR requested that these guys be included in the trade. Rivers could probably be rated a 78 if someone made a thread, plus he is going to have even more opportunity in LAC this year with CP3 gone. And don't look now, but Plumlee is likely the starting center on the Hawks. You guys are claiming they are bad contracts but would I really have held onto them for so long if they were bad? I am simply moving them once their value has increased.
JR actually makes out really well in this trade. Sure it's weird that we already traded Jrue for Gay once, but who cares? They are honestly only included to make salaries work. We might even trade them a third time after this since JR will need a SF.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 25, 2017 11:44:06 GMT
You should be willing to do this trade even without the 1st. You give up nothing and gain a free 80 with a giant expiring contract.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 25, 2017 12:49:55 GMT
Really the only reason it gets rejected is because of his first - that has the potential to be a top five based on this trade solely. Not to mention to keep trading the same players back and forth doesn't seem right? Why even include turner if he is just going to trade for him right back?
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 25, 2017 12:52:23 GMT
Barber will say just about anything to get a deal done, that's obvious. Then he'll turn around and brag about the value he's gotten all while shuffling the same contracts back and forth with JR and others.
Plumlee might start? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Please tell me where you read that? Dedmon and Muscala are expected to see the majority of minutes at Center this season. Plumlee was in that deal for salary purposes and I guess, "depth."
FTR, I don't have an issue with Rivers especially. My talk about contracts was the last trade you two made where JR took in 2 years of 3 different players who i think are all out of the league or at least not signed yet to any teams and you got back an expiring. That trade basically said you two agree that Rudy Gay is worth a bit more than Jrue on his own.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 25, 2017 12:53:16 GMT
Really the only reason it gets rejected is because of his first - that has the potential to be a top five based on this trade solely. Not to mention to keep trading the same players back and forth doesn't seem right? Why even include turner if he is just going to trade for him right back? Agreed on most here. As for Turner, I might assume it's salary purposes to make it work under 125% rule.
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Post by Ian Noble on Jul 25, 2017 13:03:39 GMT
It's a shame to see this rejected, because it's obviously involved some artful negotiations to keep it within cap rules and works well for Brooklyn, but sorry guys it's looking like too much to be passed.
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jul 25, 2017 13:10:59 GMT
You should be willing to do this trade even without the 1st. You give up nothing and gain a free 80 with a giant expiring contract. I don't want Rudy Gay, I'd much rather have Jrue Holiday. And I'm not just trying to dump salary, I have enough cap room. You are essentially proposing: 83 Jrue Holiday 80 Zach Randolph 71 Austin Rivers 71 Miles Plumlee BKN 2020 2nd BKN 2021 2nd for Rudy Gay That makes no sense for me. I just traded Gay to get Holiday. Why would I pay an additional Randolph + two 2nds + Rivers to get him back? This is why the reject of the trade makes no sense IMO. We are all getting equal value. What else would you guys have me get back for Randolph + two 2nds + Austin Rivers? (I'll even admit that Plumlee has very little value). You want me to just give away an 80, two 2nds, and Austin Rivers for free?
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 25, 2017 13:26:10 GMT
Really the only reason it gets rejected is because of his first - that has the potential to be a top five based on this trade solely. Not to mention to keep trading the same players back and forth doesn't seem right? Why even include turner if he is just going to trade for him right back? Agreed on most here. As for Turner, I might assume it's salary purposes to make it work under 125% rule. Makes sense, but doesn't this defeat the purpose of the 125% rule in theory? To me, it seems like a loophole to get around it where otherwise the trade wouldn't work. The only situation where this stands true is the fact that JR is getting back Turner immediately after this trade was to go through.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 25, 2017 13:31:37 GMT
You should be willing to do this trade even without the 1st. You give up nothing and gain a free 80 with a giant expiring contract. I don't want Rudy Gay, I'd much rather have Jrue Holiday. And I'm not just trying to dump salary, I have enough cap room. You are essentially proposing: 83 Jrue Holiday 80 Zach Randolph 71 Austin Rivers 71 Miles Plumlee BKN 2020 2nd BKN 2021 2nd for Rudy Gay That makes no sense for me. I just traded Gay to get Holiday. Why would I pay an additional Randolph + two 2nds + Rivers to get him back? This is why the reject of the trade makes no sense IMO. We are all getting equal value. What else would you guys have me get back for Randolph + two 2nds + Austin Rivers? (I'll even admit that Plumlee has very little value). You want me to just give away an 80, two 2nds, and Austin Rivers for free? None of those players besides Jrue has any value. Zach Randolph shouldn't be an 80 and most likely won't be in a few months. Austin Rivers is garbage and is a shining example of why Doc Rivers is a shit GM. The 2nds have value so don't include them. Plumlee has averaged 2ppg for like 7 years now. He's not a prospect anymore he's a bench riding locker room guy. Jrue Holiday is not worth a 1st rounder that far in the future in my opinion. Idk if people would agree with me, but it's not like Holiday is the missing piece that's gonna propel the Spurs to the conference finals. In fact, as stacked as the west is now he might not even make the playoffs THIS season, let alone in 2 years when Horford is 32 and Rose is out of the league still being paid 35 million dollars. In fact, the only way JR should give that 1st away is if they take Rose with it. The team can hope Spurs suck that year and that Rose isn't lingering around in the NBA for the remainder of that deal.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 25, 2017 13:32:59 GMT
That first is worth more than all of what Josh is giving up combined.
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jul 25, 2017 13:36:14 GMT
None of those players besides Jrue has any value. Zach Randolph shouldn't be an 80 and most likely won't be in a few months. Austin Rivers is garbage and is a shining example of why Doc Rivers is a shit GM. The 2nds have value so don't include them. Plumlee has averaged 2ppg for like 7 years now. He's not a prospect anymore he's a bench riding locker room guy. Jrue Holiday is not worth a 1st rounder that far in the future in my opinion. Idk if people would agree with me, but it's not like Holiday is the missing piece that's gonna propel the Spurs to the conference finals. In fact, as stacked as the west is now he might not even make the playoffs THIS season, let alone in 2 years when Horford is 32 and Rose is out of the league still being paid 35 million dollars. In fact, the only way JR should give that 1st away is if they take Rose with it. The team can hope Spurs suck that year and that Rose isn't lingering around in the NBA for the remainder of that deal. Well I guess that ends the argument, there is no case to be made if you just flat out refuse to consider any assets to have value. After all, you have always been a great judge of my players. Remember just a few months ago on a podcast when you said I had no one on my entire roster worth a 1st round pick?
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Post by Jared Montini on Jul 25, 2017 13:40:25 GMT
Holliday and the 2nds are worth a 1st but not a future first of a team that's on the verge of decline. I can see jrue netting like pick 15-20 in next years draft. Trading future firsts never works out unless you have a super team like the Nuggets Warriors and Bulls. Look at my team, Majerle gave up his 19 1st awhile ago because he thought he had a chance to contend but when that fell short he killed the franchise
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Jul 25, 2017 13:54:45 GMT
JR VS Walt is my favorite feud here in D5. Click Like if you agree
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Vlade Divac
Former Kings GM
Sophomore
Posts: 629
Feb 23, 2024 23:40:50 GMT
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Post by Vlade Divac on Jul 25, 2017 14:01:08 GMT
Agreed on most here. As for Turner, I might assume it's salary purposes to make it work under 125% rule. Makes sense, but doesn't this defeat the purpose of the 125% rule in theory? To me, it seems like a loophole to get around it where otherwise the trade wouldn't work. The only situation where this stands true is the fact that JR is getting back Turner immediately after this trade was to go through. In older sim leagues, we used to trade players and then trade them back. I think Ian outlawed this, but if not I need to go make one so I can create the "Vlade Divac Rule." Also, I hate to say this because I love JR, but we all know he is going to keep trying to trade the only asset he can (his 2021 1st) to compete this year. BRK, PHX, myself, and any other smart rebuilding team will try to get that pick (ala the 2021 1st.) Like Ian said, can he even make the playoffs? Again, I love JR but he is getting to the point of no return like Ghanzy? This team is starting to look like the Pistons when I took them over especially if this trade passed in its current format.
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Post by Alex English on Jul 25, 2017 15:07:11 GMT
You know what? I'm going to change my vote to accept. I think some solid arguments have been made in favour of this deal. Millsap is actually a year and a half older than Horford, which I didn't think was the case. So he's clearly better now, but by the end of their deals, both those contracts will probably be toxic. Bird rights on Olynyk does matter, even if he's a smaller part of this deal. Then, let's be honest, JR will trade that 2021 pick. It's going to happen. Today or tommorrow or next week. That pick is being traded. It's pretty clear that JR can't, or won't, draft prospects. This deal would force him to keep his 2020 and 2022 draft picks. Well those will be traded too, but he'll have to wait until draft day and trade draft rights for whoever is taken. We also know JR isn't going to tank. So even if his team sucks by 2021, the half a dozen teams that will be actively trying to lose games during that season will likely be ahead of him. That pick has a decent shot to end up in the 7-15 range even with the predictable decline of Horford and Rose. So it's valuable, but not as valuable as a Utah or Detroit 1st round pick. So I'll change my vote and Danny Longley can either re-reject this, or send it to a league vote.
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Post by Alex English on Jul 25, 2017 15:10:42 GMT
I think Ian outlawed this, but if not I need to go make one so I can create the "Vlade Divac Rule." Stop trying to make the "Vlade Divac rule" happen. It's not going to happen.
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jul 25, 2017 15:28:07 GMT
I understand why some might vote to reject this trade, but like I've said above, the value that everyone is trading is fair and no one is at risk of destroying a franchise or quitting the league. Brooklyn:I think I laid out pretty clearly that I'm not ripping anyone off here. Even Ian Noble just messaged me inquiring about Jrue Holiday for a 2021 1st. If Jrue = 2021 1st, then I am trading Randolph, Rivers, and two 2nds for Rudy Gay. I might actually be losing this deal. Raptors & SpursThis trade is really Horford and Olynyk (BRs) for Millsap. The rest of the guys are honestly just included for salary purposes to add enough contracts to get a huge x1.25 multiplier, and I don't think there is a ton of value going either way in any of those players. Horford has suffered lower numbers in Boston, but Millsap is going to suffer lower numbers in Denver this year. And, like Alex said, Millsap is older. Anyway, maybe you are set in your decisions, but I encourage both Ian Noble and Walt Frazier to reconsider their positions.
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Post by Bryan Colangelo on Jul 25, 2017 15:30:21 GMT
Ian Noble , you sure you don't wanna change your vote again
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Jul 25, 2017 15:33:07 GMT
If this trade passes the Spurs will be doomed. They will have no assets and a collection of old declining players.
JR can get so much more for this 1st. I'm honestly amazed this wasn't unanimously rejected, its a total joke
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 25, 2017 15:39:10 GMT
The fact still is that if JR goes and turns around and receives Evan Turner back after he is traded, this should be a 125% violation imo. Also, this trade looks bad because JR is literally trading his picks for guys he just traded for/away. If this aspect wasn't even part of the deal, then I wouldn't care.
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Vlade Divac
Former Kings GM
Sophomore
Posts: 629
Feb 23, 2024 23:40:50 GMT
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Post by Vlade Divac on Jul 25, 2017 15:47:01 GMT
I think Ian outlawed this, but if not I need to go make one so I can create the "Vlade Divac Rule." Stop trying to make the "Vlade Divac rule" happen. It's not going to happen. I am going to try to prove you wrong right now!
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Post by JR Wiles on Jul 25, 2017 15:58:11 GMT
Alex your right. I'm NEVER going to tank and I will ALWAYS try and put the best possible players together on the court.
Your also right, that I will NEVER draft a lottery player or pick. There is way too much unknown, except for the very few rookies that make a name for themselves. Plus you never know what team IRL will get your guy..meaning your guy may never see the floor until a rebuild happens or He gets traded or he just is that good.
We have added and changed so many rules in the 5+ years I've been here. Most have been good for the league. Some would never happen IRL without other rules being implemented. That being said... I would not be losing Jonas Valanciunas if we had added to the league restricted/unrestricted free agents. I should not lose him just because another team offers more money or has the cap space. I should be able to sign him no matter what if I feel he's worth it moving forward. I'll just match any offer to him. That rule is not a rule though and honestly rules are in place now that were not in the past that would have changed the way I would have managed the Spurs roster.. ie Tim Duncan, etc.
We may never have the best record in the league or conference or make it out of the first round, but as the GM I will make every attempt to do so.
I have been here and been screwed and I have been a very bad team and a very good team. I don't leave though and I probably never will until the league ends. I don't think it will, but my point is I am who I am and I will ALWAYS play to win and I Will ALWAYS use my picks to bring in talent. They may not be the players you want or the next GM, but to me I like my players I bring in and that and winning to me is what matters most.
I'm not mad at all that you guys want to deny this trade. It did take time from my family and life that I didn't or shouldn't have done, because overall this is all for fun and a game. I love the league and most of you guys and my team is my team and I will continue to battle it out until we get as close to the championship and the finals as I can.
I wasn't going to get a big this offseason. And without this trade I wont. But I don't be forced to trade Thomas or any player I don't want to. I won't rebuild and I won't stop trying to trade my picks to get better...at least to me.
Personally I wanted more. I wanted better players, I even kept adding to get the trade worked out. I don't like other GMs telling me that my pick will be a lottery either. If it's up to me I will fuck over any GM who takes my pick. I will try to win every damn possible game.
So deny it, change your decision or whatever. It's cool. But at the end of the day I will keep winning and I will bring in the players I want, just like the GMs do IRL!!
Some NBA teams don't ever get a top draft pick that works out. Do you think teams still don't find a way to win or build a playoff roster? I know they do and have and you guys can say I don't care or whatever...but in reality I care about my team probably more than 90% of the GMs here. I don't have to do what the rest of you do or how you do it or the way you approach the teams future. I'll ALWAYS be the SA Spurs GM and no matter what I will in the end put the roster togetger MY WAY!!
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Post by Ian Noble on Jul 25, 2017 16:03:10 GMT
We have added and changed so many rules in the 5+ years I've been here. Most have been good for the league. Some would never happen IRL without other rules being implemented. That being said... I would not be losing Jonas Valanciunas if we had added to the league restricted/unrestricted free agents. I should not lose him just because another team offers more money or has the cap space. I should be able to sign him no matter what if I feel he's worth it moving forward. I'll just match any offer to him. That rule is not a rule though and honestly rules are in place now that were not in the past that would have changed the way I would have managed the Spurs roster.. ie Tim Duncan, etc Even if we kept the RFA process, Jonas would not have been part of it. RFA would've applied to 2013 rookies and after.
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