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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 7, 2017 1:42:26 GMT
I'll probably update this after the tournament.
Tier 1: These guys are stars in my opinion. I have Ball over Fultz but really can be considered 1a 1b. Pick your flavor.
Lonzo Ball Markelle Fultz
Tier 2: I'm usually not huge on singular talent SG's but Monk's having the same season Buddy Hield had except he's doing it as a freshman while still passing and actually trying on defense. Jackson is great at everything but shooting. Everyone else has pretty good potential, no one will leave the top 8 of this draft feeling sad.
Josh Jackson Malik Monk Lauri Markkanen De'Aaron Fox Johnathan Isaac Jayson Tatum
Tier 3: I had Harry Giles in this tier because if you are gonna take a risk on the consensus #1 incoming freshman you can do it around 9-10 pick but now he's completely not playing so I took him out. I don't like Dennis Smith Jr. I don't think he should be in the conversation as a top 5 pick when there are more intriguing prospects.
Dennis Smith Jr.
Tier 4:
Isaiah Hartenstein Rodions Kurucs Ethan Happ Miles Bridges TJ Leaf Robert Williams Andrew Jones OG Anunoby
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 16:37:09 GMT
Lonzo Ball doesn't have the ceiling that Fultz does. Ball may rack up the all Star appearances but he will never win a MVP. Fultz has legit MVP upside. Fox is also really really bad. I like the rest of your rankings though
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Post by Ian Noble on Mar 7, 2017 16:43:41 GMT
Lonzo is a wildcard, he could have that Steph Curry upside, he might be shit. Maybe the lowest floor and highest ceiling I can think of in recent draft memory.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 19:27:13 GMT
Lonzo is a wildcard, he could have that Steph Curry upside, he might be shit. Maybe the lowest floor and highest ceiling I can think of in recent draft memory. I have a hard time finding him busting in the NBA. He has a really high floor in my opinion. His vision and passing ability combined with his situational IQ on both ends of the floor makes him a really good backup at worst. His bust comparison is Kendall Marshall but Ball has outshined him in the scoring department by a large margin, even if his pre shot movement and release point are a bit wonky.
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Post by Jared Montini on Mar 7, 2017 20:42:52 GMT
Lavar ball was being crazy on fs1 this morning. He thinks Lonzo is already better than curry and says Lonzo is clearly the best college player.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 20:46:01 GMT
Lavar ball was being crazy on fs1 this morning. He thinks Lonzo is already better than curry and says Lonzo is clearly the best college player. His dad is actually a huge concern with me. The dude is pants on head retarded and is going to be a big distraction. Lonzos family is all really close so I don't see him distancing himself from his father for the sake of his career. To be honest his dipshit dad is one of his biggest red flags. Lamelo is the same kind of dipshit I hope he grows up before he goes to college or I won't touch him because of it.
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Post by Ian Noble on Mar 7, 2017 20:55:07 GMT
Lavar ball was being crazy on fs1 this morning. He thinks Lonzo is already better than curry and says Lonzo is clearly the best college player. His dad is actually a huge concern with me. The dude is pants on head retarded and is going to be a big distraction. Lonzos family is all really close so I don't see him distancing himself from his father for the sake of his career. To be honest his dipshit dad is one of his biggest red flags. Lamelo is the same kind of dipshit I hope he grows up before he goes to college or I won't touch him because of it. It makes me think of Michael Jackson when he was a kid, with his crazy father. Maybe Lonzo will be the prodigy we all want?! Kudos for "pants on head retarded"
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 7, 2017 22:52:29 GMT
Lavar ball was being crazy on fs1 this morning. He thinks Lonzo is already better than curry and says Lonzo is clearly the best college player. I think Lonzo is clearly the best college point guard, he's probably definite top 5 college player overall though I'll admit to not following upperclassmen as much for obvious reasons. He outshines Fultz in nearly every possible statistic. I don't think even Billy who LOVES Fultz would say that RIGHT NOW that Fultz is better. Lonzo Ball's only issue is inside scoring. He doesn't get to the rack as much as you want for a PG. However, when he does get there he's more often successful than not. If that doesn't translate then I'm looking at a slick passing Rubio who can shoot slightly better and isn't as good on D. Either way I think they both clearly outshine my 2nd tier although Josh Jackson is so close but I just can't stand low FT shooters on the wing it just screams non-shooter to me. Though he's inching closer and closer to being in that top tier for me.
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Post by Alex English on Mar 7, 2017 23:03:31 GMT
I just can't stand low FT shooters on the wing it just screams non-shooter to me. Lonzo Ball is also a terrible free throw shooter. So is Markelle Fultz for that matter.
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Mar 8, 2017 0:01:43 GMT
Cowherd had those two as surefire corner stones... I agree with Balls but not with Fultz...
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 8, 2017 6:23:55 GMT
I just can't stand low FT shooters on the wing it just screams non-shooter to me. Lonzo Ball is also a terrible free throw shooter. So is Markelle Fultz for that matter. 66% is correctable in my eyes unlike the 55% that Jackson is sporting. You also ignore effective FG% which is an eyepopping 67.5% That beats the following guys who were also better at passing than scoring coming out of college by a big margin: Jason Williams: 58.5% Chris Paul: 57% Jason Kidd: 50.5% Mike Conley: 55.2% Deron Williams: 50.6% Additionally, his effect on an offense is just completely measurable as well. Kyle Anderson, Jordan Adams, Norman Powell, Zach LaVine, and the efficient Wear twins. That was a LOADED team full of NBA talent. And UCLA Coach Alford's 2014 team posted a 118.1 Adjusted Offensive Rating. His next few teams went 110.8 and 111.5 respectively. This years team, with only freshmen Lonzo/Leaf as NBA caliber players they are posting 124.2 AdjO. The whole team is younger as a whole as well. Furthermore, just to rank of Assist to Turnovers: Ball: 3.12 Paul: 2.3 Stockton: 2.2 Kidd: 2.0 Nash: 1.7 Hardaway: 1.7 He's just going crazy in terms of his efficiency compared to any prospect in the lottery era. If he is athletic enough to maintain his overall efficiency inside (he is) and his shot is at least threatening enough to be required to be guarded (so people don't stack the box like they do Rubio) then Ball could be a Rubio/Rondo that is actually a scoring threat with slightly downgraded defense then he will just insane. He just has so many outlier stats that it's impossible to ignore. Now will Fultz get his points? Yeah, he has that scoring punch that will help him fly up in rankings probably a little sooner than Lonzo will. And maybe for the intents of the SIM he might be a better D5 #1 pick. BUT, Miami is currently ruining dreams in the sim and scoring guards Westbrook and Harden are kind of blowing so just pick the guy you like and feel comfortable running your team. Also I'm not so worried about the dad issues simply because we all thought Okafor's dad would be an issue and the NBA shut his stupid ass up really fast.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 12:17:12 GMT
Balls efficiency in both scoring and passing are because of his insane on court IQ, Jeremiah. Very rarely does he make the wrong read or take the wrong shot. He can't score at will, and never will be able to, touting him as a generational prospect like CP3 is off.
You can count on two hands the amount of times he gets around someone on a drive that isn't a straight line, or scores inside not in transition, or even shoots off the dribble. He is almost strictly a straight line spot up shooter. His limitations are much bigger than you are insisting and the stats you use to compare him to these generational prospects are misleading for the reasons I stated above.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 12:21:29 GMT
Not only that but taking a point guard, even the best one in 20 years nets you... How many rings? How many times has CP3 been to the finals? He has a pretty nice team around him too. You need a complete player that can take over an entire game, especially if you're drafting at #1.
There's a few guys in this draft that have that upside, and Lonzo isn't one of them. There's a fuckton of great point guards in the NBA.
You're coming at this from your perspective, Jeremiah which is reasonable. If I had KAT and Jokic holy hell I'd probably take Lonzo Ball.
But if you're Atlanta or Utah and you take Ball over the chance to get a true franchise building block you majorly fucked up. Franchise building blocks don't come along every draft. This draft gives you a chance to get one beyond pick #1. Insane.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 8, 2017 19:47:16 GMT
Not only that but taking a point guard, even the best one in 20 years nets you... How many rings? How many times has CP3 been to the finals? He has a pretty nice team around him too. You need a complete player that can take over an entire game, especially if you're drafting at #1. There's a few guys in this draft that have that upside, and Lonzo isn't one of them. There's a fuckton of great point guards in the NBA. You're coming at this from your perspective, Jeremiah which is reasonable. If I had KAT and Jokic holy hell I'd probably take Lonzo Ball. But if you're Atlanta or Utah and you take Ball over the chance to get a true franchise building block you majorly fucked up. Franchise building blocks don't come along every draft. This draft gives you a chance to get one beyond pick #1. Insane. CP3 is 6'0" Lonzo is 6'6" How often have we seen CP3 force his way into the lane and OUT of playoff games? CP3 has failed because he's almost always been the ONLY quality ball handler on his team. You can't win like that nowadays. The teams they lose t0o have multiple levels of attack. His teams have pick and roll.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 22:01:22 GMT
Not only that but taking a point guard, even the best one in 20 years nets you... How many rings? How many times has CP3 been to the finals? He has a pretty nice team around him too. You need a complete player that can take over an entire game, especially if you're drafting at #1. There's a few guys in this draft that have that upside, and Lonzo isn't one of them. There's a fuckton of great point guards in the NBA. You're coming at this from your perspective, Jeremiah which is reasonable. If I had KAT and Jokic holy hell I'd probably take Lonzo Ball. But if you're Atlanta or Utah and you take Ball over the chance to get a true franchise building block you majorly fucked up. Franchise building blocks don't come along every draft. This draft gives you a chance to get one beyond pick #1. Insane. CP3 is 6'0" Lonzo is 6'6" How often have we seen CP3 force his way into the lane and OUT of playoff games? CP3 has failed because he's almost always been the ONLY quality ball handler on his team. You can't win like that nowadays. The teams they lose t0o have multiple levels of attack. His teams have pick and roll. Lonzo isn't even that great of a ball handler.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 9, 2017 2:13:35 GMT
CP3 is 6'0" Lonzo is 6'6" How often have we seen CP3 force his way into the lane and OUT of playoff games? CP3 has failed because he's almost always been the ONLY quality ball handler on his team. You can't win like that nowadays. The teams they lose t0o have multiple levels of attack. His teams have pick and roll. Lonzo isn't even that great of a ball handler. He's a player who can handle the ball. He's not on a Kyrie or Steph level but he's well within above average-good level for a rookie PG. Don't be thick Billy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 11:58:54 GMT
Lonzo isn't even that great of a ball handler. He's a player who can handle the ball. He's not on a Kyrie or Steph level but he's well within above average-good level for a rookie PG. Don't be thick Billy. Don't be thick? Come on. Average handle for the "best pg in the draft" when you throw in all his other weaknesses makes it seem pretty clear to me that calling this guy the best in the draft is as reachy as calling Bender the best last year.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 11:58:56 GMT
Lonzo isn't even that great of a ball handler. He's a player who can handle the ball. He's not on a Kyrie or Steph level but he's well within above average-good level for a rookie PG. Don't be thick Billy. Don't be thick? Come on. Average handle for the "best player in the draft" for a PG when you throw in all his other weaknesses makes it seem pretty clear to me that calling this guy the best in the draft is as reachy as calling Bender the best last year. He could certainly become the best player, but he isn't the best prospect.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 9, 2017 15:51:01 GMT
He's a player who can handle the ball. He's not on a Kyrie or Steph level but he's well within above average-good level for a rookie PG. Don't be thick Billy. Don't be thick? Come on. Average handle for the "best player in the draft" for a PG when you throw in all his other weaknesses makes it seem pretty clear to me that calling this guy the best in the draft is as reachy as calling Bender the best last year. He could certainly become the best player, but he isn't the best prospect. Fultz isn't exactly the 2nd coming of Pistol Pete in terms of ball handling either. In fact I haven't really seen a GREAT ball handler in the draft so far at all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 19:55:47 GMT
Don't be thick? Come on. Average handle for the "best player in the draft" for a PG when you throw in all his other weaknesses makes it seem pretty clear to me that calling this guy the best in the draft is as reachy as calling Bender the best last year. He could certainly become the best player, but he isn't the best prospect. Fultz isn't exactly the 2nd coming of Pistol Pete in terms of ball handling either. In fact I haven't really seen a GREAT ball handler in the draft so far at all. DSJ is my pick for best PG in this class. The fact that he is slipping in all the mocks makes me less annoyed at Detroit winning games. The guy is going to be a stud in the NBA, he is literally the perfect PG. If NOP somehow got to keep their pick and got DSJ he would be unstoppable running the PNR.
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