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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 3, 2017 6:58:36 GMT
I disagree that you got worse offers. I had a deal that included my pick which is at least 3-4 times more valuable than OKC's pick. My players weren't as good but whatever. dude this draft is top heavy. The top 8-10 people are the only guys I see with real value so your trade was not near good enough. Yabusele a first and mudiay is worth lavine My pick is a lottery pick. It's got a small chance of being top 3.
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Post by Ian Noble on Mar 3, 2017 8:18:28 GMT
Zach LaVine is one of the darlings of D5. There has been talk around here that he is better than Wiggins, which I think is crazy by the way. So there is no doubt that there are about a dozen offers for LaVine that are way better than this one. I hate trades like this. One team obviously wins, but there is enough value that I'm not sure it can be rejected. Which I guess is what I try to do in all my own trades lol, but I just wish this trade never happened because I think it probably ends up getting passed. I'll begrudgingly accept, but good luck getting that vote from Ian and other guys who are in love with LaVine. if Ian likes lavine so much why did he offer me only cam Payne for him. I got a lot of shityy offers You can't negotiate if you don't reply
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 12:37:45 GMT
dude this draft is top heavy. The top 8-10 people are the only guys I see with real value so your trade was not near good enough. Yabusele a first and mudiay is worth lavine My pick is a lottery pick. It's got a small chance of being top 3. Lol like a 3% chance at a top 3 pick is worth more than this package, nice try JH. Yabusele is worth more than your pick by himself. I'm also more than willing to go on record saying he is better than whoever goes pick 10-11 this year. You'd really pick someone like Fox over Yabusele? Nahhh
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Kevin Hollis
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Mar 3, 2017 13:03:30 GMT
My pick is a lottery pick. It's got a small chance of being top 3. Lol like a 3% chance at a top 3 pick is worth more than this package, nice try JH. Yabusele is worth more than your pick by himself. I'm also more than willing to go on record saying he is better than whoever goes pick 10-11 this year. You'd really pick someone like Fox over Yabusele? Nahhh I remember another player that played in China and everyone thought he was amazing before playing in the NBA.. can you remind me of who that was? They play in China for s reason.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 13:05:57 GMT
Lol like a 3% chance at a top 3 pick is worth more than this package, nice try JH. Yabusele is worth more than your pick by himself. I'm also more than willing to go on record saying he is better than whoever goes pick 10-11 this year. You'd really pick someone like Fox over Yabusele? Nahhh I remember another player that played in China and everyone thought he was amazing before playing in the NBA.. can you remind me of who that was? They play in China for s reason. Do you just not know, or are you ignoring that he played French Pro-A before that and also performed really well, he got drafted 16th overall last year for his performance in Europe, not China. Danny Ainge sent him to China because he didn't have room on the 15 man, but in hindsight that move was really dumb because he's at the very least better than fucking Jerebko.
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Kevin Hollis
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Mar 3, 2017 13:15:34 GMT
I remember another player that played in China and everyone thought he was amazing before playing in the NBA.. can you remind me of who that was? They play in China for s reason. Do you just not know, or are you ignoring that he played French Pro-A before that and also performed really well, he got drafted 16th overall last year for his performance in Europe, not China. Danny Ainge sent him to China because he didn't have room on the 15 man, but in hindsight that move was really dumb because he's at the very least better than fucking Jerebko. So you think. Again, sent there for a reason. All I am saying is people have valid arguments to be skeptical. How many players outside the top5-8 picks are not high reward players? Maybe all?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 13:19:19 GMT
Do you just not know, or are you ignoring that he played French Pro-A before that and also performed really well, he got drafted 16th overall last year for his performance in Europe, not China. Danny Ainge sent him to China because he didn't have room on the 15 man, but in hindsight that move was really dumb because he's at the very least better than fucking Jerebko. So you think. Again, sent there for a reason. All I am saying is people have valid arguments to be skeptical. How many players outside the top5-8 picks are not high reward players? Maybe all? That's why I'm including Mudiay, OKC 2017 1st, Georges Niang, Tyler Ulis. Oh, and I have legit reasons to be skeptical about Lavine too.
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Post by Ian Noble on Mar 3, 2017 13:40:58 GMT
I'll believe the Yabusele hype when I see it come to fruition in the NBA.
Zach LaVine is already looking like a star player though. If I were Phoenix I would shop around for much longer and find a much better deal, because there will be lots of them out there.
I reject.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Mar 3, 2017 15:18:25 GMT
So you think. Again, sent there for a reason. All I am saying is people have valid arguments to be skeptical. How many players outside the top5-8 picks are not high reward players? Maybe all? That's why I'm including Mudiay, OKC 2017 1st, Georges Niang, Tyler Ulis. Oh, and I have legit reasons to be skeptical about Lavine too. His injury, which shouldn't be a worry with today's medical practices. So, I see where you are trying to come from, but I am on the side of Lavine being worth a lot more, and you obviously believe so too. Plus, we all know ainge can't draft.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 15:29:04 GMT
Fair enough. I respect all of your guys opinions, I just have to respectfully disagree and feel like I'm giving up quite a bit, I just didn't expect this much of a fight . Fine with either result if this gets rejected. Not sure how much more I could add though before risk becomes too great to my talent starved franchise.
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Kevin Hollis
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Mar 3, 2017 16:23:40 GMT
Fair enough. I respect all of your guys opinions, I just have to respectfully disagree and feel like I'm giving up quite a bit, I just didn't expect this much of a fight . Fine with either result if this gets rejected. Not sure how much more I could add though before risk becomes too great to my talent starved franchise. I wouldn't reject it if I was making the call ftw. I was just giving me opinion and saying I think you win big time for your circumstances. A possible high end all-star caliber player that doesn't impact your lotto pick chances in a great draft class. Honestly, I just don't trust anyone ainge drafts, even Rozier. Only reason I took Rozer was because of the defensive capabilities and that he is from Youngstown. Rozier misses so many layups it's beyond absurd. Some think Brown is starting to show signs of why he was drafted third, but I still think he won't be an all-star within the next 5 years, if ever.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 3, 2017 20:16:48 GMT
I will say Yabusele is playing in China because it was the only way he'd make comparable money to his rookie contract in the NBA.
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Mar 3, 2017 22:22:25 GMT
PHX got the right package for a team looking to take the same path BK took
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Post by Walt Frazier on Mar 4, 2017 13:28:36 GMT
Through no fault of Jared's, his team just doesn't have that much value on it. Taj is OK and his contract is just OK enough that he's got value. Thad and Tobias are solid but IMO way overpaid and their trade value suffers a good amount because of that. Ellenson has potential but completely unproven at this point. I guess Jameer is alright but I wish he didn't have 3 years on his deal. And Jamal Crawford is a solid piece but he expires and he makes 8 million right now which makes trade partners hard to find.
So, LaVine is the Face and the future of the Suns. I just can't see how this is an acceptable deal for the Suns. Hana is right, this will begin a loooooooong road to recovery with absolutely zero guarantee any of these players become anything useful.
I have to reject based on circumstances.
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Post by Bryan Colangelo on Mar 4, 2017 17:43:38 GMT
I'm going to reject this deal just because those draft right players haven't proven anything. As Josh said, it's a late 1st rounder (OKC) and Emmanuel Mudiay basically. I disagree with the point that Emmanuel Mudiay is done, I feel he can still play and be a solid player but he isn't like Zack. I'm not super high on Zack by any means but I know Emmanuel Mudiay isn't near Zack potential. If you are planning to trade your entire team, I would demand more for your top asset and maybe shed contracts as well.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2017 19:28:11 GMT
If the draft rights players didn't have names next to them and instead just where they were drafted this would've passed easily.
Stupid. Really wish trades didn't get rejected because people don't know the names of prospects.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2017 20:26:03 GMT
Like doesn't it seem a bit weird that you can consider a future 1st to be valuable and a part of this deal -- a pick that isn't even a player yet and hasn't proven anything -- but a draft rights player isn't even considered valuable because they haven't proven anything?
Not logical.
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Kevin Hollis
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Mar 4, 2017 23:28:05 GMT
I believe they are using this stance bc of the potential of lavine. I could be wrong, but I believe this is why.
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Mar 5, 2017 0:27:40 GMT
Just my two cents. The ACL injury made Z riskier and the injury of KD will improve OKC pick's value. The rise of salary cap IRL will propel more team to try their stash guys.
If the RCs add that to their evaluation, they could have accepted it.
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Kevin Hollis
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Mar 5, 2017 0:56:07 GMT
Just my two cents. The ACL injury made Z riskier and the injury of KD will improve OKC pick's value. The rise of salary cap IRL will propel more team to try their stash guys. If the RCs add that to their evaluation, they could have accepted it. If Durant gets ruled out for the playoffs, sure. However right now he is being evaluated st four weeks and an injury requires six weeks for d5 purposes. Gsw said he should have s couple warmup games before the start of the playoffs, so we will see then. Fwiw, I said I would accept the trade, but I think Phoenix may be losing some credibility as a lot of his trades have been rejected by the committee which may leave them to evaluate his trades more than others.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 1:08:03 GMT
Just my two cents. The ACL injury made Z riskier and the injury of KD will improve OKC pick's value. The rise of salary cap IRL will propel more team to try their stash guys. If the RCs add that to their evaluation, they could have accepted it. If Durant gets ruled out for the playoffs, sure. However right now he is being evaluated st four weeks and an injury requires six weeks for d5 purposes. Gsw said he should have s couple warmup games before the start of the playoffs, so we will see then. Fwiw, I said I would accept the trade, but I think Phoenix may be losing some credibility as a lot of his trades have been rejected by the committee which may leave them to evaluate his trades more than others. Lol a lot of his trades have been rejected for worse trades right after with more favored GMs... *Shots fired*
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Post by Jared Montini on Mar 5, 2017 1:48:22 GMT
the trade comitee is crazy in this league. They wouldn't let my Washington trade go through because they think he should be tanking but then let him trade picks for Okafor and knight. They wouldn't let me trade Thad young for Noah and a 1st. None of those trades hurt my franchise at all. The comitee rejects trades so the team is fine for future gms if the current one ducks out, but this just makes it so I can't take this team to be where I want it. Lavine is a good player but his acl injury hurts his value. You guys keep saying that an acl test doesn't ruin your career but it kind of does. For example Jabari Parker has now done it twice I believe and Peterson has messed up his knee multiple times. Once the acl is torn you are more likely to sustain a injury in the future. Also, say if lavine comes back he is still the 3rd option on his team and could be the 4th if the wolves luck out in the lottery. I just don't see how this trade hurts me enough to reject.
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Post by Alex English on Mar 5, 2017 2:29:57 GMT
Like doesn't it seem a bit weird that you can consider a future 1st to be valuable and a part of this deal -- a pick that isn't even a player yet and hasn't proven anything -- but a draft rights player isn't even considered valuable because they haven't proven anything? Not logical. Yea but the illogical part is how we treat draft picks. We lose our mind for the Xth overall pick but the second that pick becomes a player they plummet in value. A pick has people daydreaming and fantasizing about the future, a prospect with a name forces you to be realistic. Look at your Wiggins trade. The only reason that trade passed is because it was listed as picks and not players. I will stand by my reject vote on that trade until Earth freezes over. Wiggins for the 11th, 14th, 17th, a 2018 1st and RHJ sounds great in theory. Wiggins for Denzel Valentine, Timother Luwawu, Guerschon Yabusele, a 2018 1st and RHJ is a lot of nothing and you got robbed. That said, I still think there was enough here for this trade to be accepted, but I get the other reject votes because quantity almost never equals quality in basketball.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 2:36:59 GMT
Like doesn't it seem a bit weird that you can consider a future 1st to be valuable and a part of this deal -- a pick that isn't even a player yet and hasn't proven anything -- but a draft rights player isn't even considered valuable because they haven't proven anything? Not logical. Yea but the illogical part is how we treat draft picks. We lose our mind for the Xth overall pick but the second that pick becomes a player they plummet in value. A pick has people daydreaming and fantasizing about the future, a prospect with a name forces you to be realistic. Look at your Wiggins trade. The only reason that trade passed is because it was listed as picks and not players. I will stand by my reject vote on that trade until Earth freezes over. Wiggins for the 11th, 14th, 17th, a 2018 1st and RHJ sounds great in theory. Wiggins for Denzel Valentine, Timother Luwawu, Guerschon Yabusele, a 2018 1st and RHJ is a lot of nothing and you got robbed. That said, I still think there was enough here for this trade to be accepted, but I get the other reject votes because quantity almost never equals quality in basketball. Fair enough, thougu if I get Doncic with that pick though and Yabusele keeps going the rate he has I will have raped Brian 10x over. Who cares if he got jumpy shabazz or not!
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Post by Alex English on Mar 5, 2017 2:47:34 GMT
Fair enough, thougu if I get Doncic with that pick though and Yabusele keeps going the rate he has I will have raped Brian 10x over. Who cares if he got jumpy shabazz or not! I feel like you'd trade Wiggins straight up for Yabusele.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 2:48:48 GMT
Fair enough, thougu if I get Doncic with that pick though and Yabusele keeps going the rate he has I will have raped Brian 10x over. Who cares if he got jumpy shabazz or not! I feel like you'd trade Wiggins straight up for Yabusele. In 3 years this trade with be front and center in the LOL past trades thread. LOL remember when Ian trade RAJON RONDO for that shitty indiana 1st!?
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Post by Alex English on Mar 5, 2017 3:08:03 GMT
In 3 years this trade with be front and center in the LOL past trades thread. LOL remember when Ian trade RAJON RONDO for that shitty indiana 1st!? Indiana's pick and five other 1st round picks. It's actually a fascinating trade to revisit. Ian got really lucky (for once) by having the 9th pick win the lottery. Without that, the return wasn't actually that great. Ian basically traded Rajon Rondo for Ben Simmons, Frank Kaminsky, Sam Dekker, Adreian Payne, Shabazz Napier and SAC 2018 1st. The unlikely lottery win for Simmons saves that trade because six 1st round picks sounds way better than that list of players. Draft picks are overrated. That trade was still the right thing to do though, and the return was good (Simmons or not) in my opinion because Rondo sucks and I've always thought he benefited so much from playing with KG, Pierce and Allen.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 3:13:31 GMT
In 3 years this trade with be front and center in the LOL past trades thread. LOL remember when Ian trade RAJON RONDO for that shitty indiana 1st!? Indiana's pick and five other 1st round picks. It's actually a fascinating trade to revisit. Ian got really lucky (for once) by having the 9th pick win the lottery. Without that, the return wasn't actually that great. Ian basically traded Rajon Rondo for Ben Simmons, Frank Kaminsky, Sam Dekker, Adreian Payne, Shabazz Napier and SAC 2018 1st. The unlikely lottery win for Simmons saves that trade because six 1st round picks sounds way better than that list of players. Draft picks are overrated. That trade was still the right thing to do though, and the return was good (Simmons or not) in my opinion because Rondo sucks and I've always thought he benefited so much from playing with KG, Pierce and Allen. Yeah, and how good is Lavine... Really!? I wouldn't be as up-in-arms about this if I didn't think it was just to fucking ridiculous. I've never had a trade where my team, possibly th most talent devoid team in the league, would get a trade rejected for someone that scores barely 20 point per per game and then also tears their ACL. It's just mind boggling to me. I literally don't understand at all. And the reasoning from the rejects were all suuuper shitty. Only acknowledging the ceiling on one side and the floor on a other...
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Post by Walt Frazier on Mar 5, 2017 4:34:54 GMT
Can I summarize my reject a different way?
Phoenix gives a legit starting player (at a weak position in the NBA to boot). Not only a legit starting player, but one with a pretty high ceiling.
Phoenix gets, very likely, a handful of role/bench players in return. "Mudiay could still turn into a Brandon Jennings type player!" - Someone said that in this thread I think. Is that the standard, and that's what's seeming like a best-case scenario for the piece with the most value on that side of the trade?
I actually really like Ulis, and I think Yabusele has some upside, but you can't ignore the downside either. LaVine has downside due to injury but the one side of this argument is trying to say he's guaranteed done forever. Which, if so, Billy wouldn't trade for him.
LaVine has actually proven things in the NBA. Mudiay has flopped, though he's not done, he really should have made more of an impact by now. He has, incontrovertibly, fallen flat on his face to this point. Jameer Nelson has overtaken him, come on.
It's not that Jared can't trade LaVine, and it's not that these pieces are worthless on the other side, but it really looks like a bunch of role-player/bench players that are easily replaceable for one legit NBA starter with high upside.
That's just a reject unless it's a super salary-driven trade, maybe? Which this isn't.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 4:40:34 GMT
Can I summarize my reject a different way? Phoenix gives a legit starting player (at a weak position in the NBA to boot). Not only a legit starting player, but one with a pretty high ceiling. Phoenix gets, very likely, a handful of role/bench players in return. "Mudiay could still turn into a Brandon Jennings type player!" - Someone said that in this thread I think. Is that the standard, and that's what's seeming like a best-case scenario for the piece with the most value on that side of the trade? I actually really like Ulis, and I think Yabusele has some upside, but you can't ignore the downside either. LaVine has downside due to injury but the one side of this argument is trying to say he's guaranteed done forever. Which, if so, Billy wouldn't trade for him. LaVine has actually proven things in the NBA. Mudiay has flopped, though he's not done, he really should have made more of an impact by now. He has, incontrovertibly, fallen flat on his face to this point. Jameer Nelson has overtaken him, come on. It's not that Jared can't trade LaVine, and it's not that these pieces are worthless on the other side, but it really looks like a bunch of role-player/bench players that are easily replaceable for one legit NBA starter with high upside. That's just a reject unless it's a super salary-driven trade, maybe? Which this isn't. I agree. A bunch of bench players // upside starters wouldn't be worth Lavine who has semi-star upside (please raise your goddamn hand if you think Lavine is the #1 or #2 option of a ring team), but then when you take the star and tear his ACL you have to see that the trade can't be rejectable. IS IT NOT POSSIBLE TO TRADR FOR A BORDERLINE STAR WITH A CAREER THREATENING INJURY WITHOUT GIVING UP ANOTHER GUARANTEED STAR? I'm not trading for Ben Simmons or Wiggins or whoever, this guy is a goddamn 3rd option at best that just tore his goddamn ACL and I just offered half my team and it's rejectable? Come on The TC has been going full retard lately
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