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Post by Shaquille O'Neal on Feb 28, 2019 17:12:43 GMT
I was comparing Steven Adams player stats from his 84 to 85 thread and i saw some bs editing from his rating.
Steven Adams 84 : Aware FG 3PT FT InsideScr Dunk Pass Handle Aware Steal Block OffReb DefReb Speed Quick Fatigue 78 74 1 58 89 60 20 40 91 60 55 99 85 67 70 88 Steven Adams 85 : 81 76 1 55 89 60 25 45 96 75 58 99 60 67 70 93
+15 -25
So you are telling me guys that Steven Adams only has a 60 Def Rebounds after the thread and a lot of his stats went to steals?!
Dewayne Dedmon: 76 def reb Ivica Zubac: 75 def reb Taj Gibson: 67 def reb Blake Griffin: 70 def reb (8rpg)
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Feb 28, 2019 17:49:13 GMT
Don't know why his rebounding was lowered if it was. Kind of silly.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Feb 28, 2019 21:04:20 GMT
It's consistent with all other changes I do.
His DEFENSIVE rebounding is not elite. At all. 4.9 per game? Drummond pulls in 10.0 Def reb per game. He was at 10.9 last year. Embiid 11.0 Giannis 10.3 DeAndre 10.2 .... Mirotic 6.5 Kawhi 6.2 Doncic 6.2 ..... Derozan 5.5 Gay 5.5 Middleton 5.4 Gallinari 5.0 Adams 4.9 Ariza 4.9
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Post by Walt Frazier on Feb 28, 2019 21:05:46 GMT
Anyone in D720. You see how it got when the specific rating changes were botched about relentlessly, right? Got the commish and rating changer (same person) to want to quit the league.
I can take a bit of heat, but, you can do it in a more civil way.
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Post by George Gervin on Feb 28, 2019 21:37:16 GMT
To Walt’s point, Steven Adams is not good on the defensive glass. If there was a rating for box outs, he’d be maxed out as he is arguably the best guy in the league at clearing folks out to allow Russ or PG to grab the board and start the break. He’s a tenacious offensive rebounder, which is clear in his ratings, but he’s not a rebounding machine on both ends of the floor
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Feb 28, 2019 22:05:14 GMT
I see what you are saying. Kind of interesting to look back and see that he is actually having a career year on the defensive glass at 4.9.
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Post by James Kay on Feb 28, 2019 22:32:30 GMT
It's consistent with all other changes I do. His DEFENSIVE rebounding is not elite. At all. I came into this thread posed to defend the argument: "Steven Adams is an ELITE offensive rebounder, and offensive rebounding is more difficult, therefore his skill should carry over to defensive rebounding." I gathered some stats about Steven Adams: Top 10 in Def. Box Outs#2 in Offensive Rebounds#2 in Contested Rebound PercentageBUT. In terms of defensive rebounding, OKC is not really in the elite category that you might expect. They are a fantastic offensive rebounding team, but they're actually a middling team when it comes to defensive boards. #12 in Overall Defensive Rebounding %Worst in the league at contested defensive rebound %So, it actually might be fair to say that Steven Adams isn't that fantastic of a defensive rebounder. I'm not sure if going as low as 60 is fair, but I leave that to Walt because he knows the ratings so much better than I do. IMO, I think he is not elite, but I think that his numbers are certainly deflated by deferring to RW and PG. And to Walt: Your work is incredibly appreciated and please don't interpret this as being ungrateful or stepping on your toes; please don't stop working on the ratings
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Post by Alex English on Feb 28, 2019 23:05:24 GMT
Yeah 4.9 defensive rebounds per game is not impressive at all. On the other hand 4.5 offensive rebounds per game is elite, and that's shown in the ratings as he has a 99. The discrepancy was even worse last year too when Adams actually average more offensive rebounds per game than defensive rebounds (5.1 orpg vs 4.0 drpg) which I've honestly never seen before. So yeah, average at best defensive rebounding with elite offensive rebounding makes sense. I don't see much of an issue here.
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Post by Shaquille O'Neal on Mar 1, 2019 2:49:04 GMT
Adams is top 17 in Rpg while Westbrook is top 11 with 9.8 defensive rebound per game.
His defensive rebounds per game are a bit low because of Westbrook stat padding every defensive rebound.
Video from last year.
Adams will also break his total defensive rebounds from last year.
2017-2018: 76 games with 301 total Defensive rebounds 2018-2019: 58 games with 282 total Defensive rebounds
He is averaging the best season in terms of Defensive rebounds in his career.
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His DEFENSIVE rebounding is not elite. At all. 4.9 per game? Drummond pulls in 10.0 Def reb per game. He was at 10.9 last year. (the next player is averaging just 8rpg)
****He was also not even in the top 50 in defensive box out statistics which means his teammates boxes out for him to stat pad his rebounding.
Embiid 11.0 (next player is averaging 9rpg)
***Actually a good rebounding player
Giannis 10.3 ( He gets all the rebounds for the team, next player is averaging 5rpg)
***Brook Lopez is top 4 in Defensive Box outs with 4.3rpg which means he boxes out a lot but gives the rebound to Giannis for him to have a better stats.
Derozan 5.5 Gay 5.5
****(Aldridge is top 2 in defensive box out but only average 5.8 defensive rebound per game, why? because he gives the rebounds to this players.)
If you play basketball in real life you know if you are an Elite Offensive rebounder there is no way you are a trash Defensive rebounder.
He doesn't get the rebounds because he wants to stat pad Westbrook and Paul George because they are the Superstars.
60 is absurd.
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Post by Alex English on Mar 1, 2019 6:04:52 GMT
Adams is top 17 in Rpg while Westbrook is top 11 with 9.8 defensive rebound per game. His defensive rebounds per game are a bit low because of Westbrook stat padding every defensive rebound. Video from last year. Adams will also break his total defensive rebounds from last year. 2017-2018: 76 games with 301 total Defensive rebounds 2018-2019: 58 games with 282 total Defensive rebounds He is averaging the best season in terms of Defensive rebounds in his career. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- His DEFENSIVE rebounding is not elite. At all. 4.9 per game? Drummond pulls in 10.0 Def reb per game. He was at 10.9 last year. (the next player is averaging just 8rpg) ****He was also not even in the top 50 in defensive box out statistics which means his teammates boxes out for him to stat pad his rebounding. Embiid 11.0 (next player is averaging 9rpg) ***Actually a good rebounding player Giannis 10.3 ( He gets all the rebounds for the team, next player is averaging 5rpg) ***Brook Lopez is top 4 in Defensive Box outs with 4.3rpg which means he boxes out a lot but gives the rebound to Giannis for him to have a better stats. Derozan 5.5 Gay 5.5 ****(Aldridge is top 2 in defensive box out but only average 5.8 defensive rebound per game, why? because he gives the rebounds to this players.) If you play basketball in real life you know if you are an Elite Offensive rebounder there is no way you are a trash Defensive rebounder. He doesn't get the rebounds because he wants to stat pad Westbrook and Paul George because they are the Superstars. 60 is absurd. I mostly agree with your point, Adams could get way more rebounds if he didn't box out for Westbrook. However that doesn't change the fact that Adams does box out for Westbrook and he doesn't get many defensive rebounds. Since we set ratings based on what players actually do, I don't really see the issue. If we started giving ratings based on what we thought players could achieve given certain conditions we've never seen in real life, then the stock watch section would become so subjective it would be meaningless. The reality is that Adams is only average 4.9 defensive rebounds, and that's a career high too. That's honestly pretty terrible for a starting center. His ratings should reflect that.
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Mar 1, 2019 10:03:36 GMT
Let me simplify Shaq's point, which I agree but will still depend on Walt.
Making the per game numbers and the shallow advance stats as basis is fine. But, adding another like the box-out stats, is better.
One thing that we always forget is that we also need to balance it for the entire NBA pool of players. Remember, that we have a maximum of 99 per attribute. So, if for example, someone rises next season and shot 50% in 10 3-point attempts per game, we can only give him 99, and nothing more nothing less.
At the end of the day, it will still depend if that is still convenient for Walt. If not, I am fine with the way it currently works and will continue to be thankful to Walt for sacrificing his time to do the ratings.
Although he SUCKS in one role. I will not tell you what it is.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Mar 1, 2019 12:50:19 GMT
If I was a robot, Adams would have had a rating of 43-48 for DReb.
Ijs
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Post by Walt Frazier on Mar 1, 2019 12:53:23 GMT
Alex nailed it btw.
As a whole, we rate based on what is actually happening IRL.
And due to our somewhat unsophisticated rating / sim engine, we're talking about the real life, old, basic stats for the most part.
Box outs and such, if they're represented anywhere, are in strength and DAware, basically. In addition to DReb and OReb, yes, but truly this engine doesn't really process things like that aside from the ultimate effect of total offensive and defensive rebounds.
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Billy King
Former Jazz and Knicks GM
Rookie
Posts: 247
Oct 30, 2023 14:13:22 GMT
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Post by Billy King on Mar 1, 2019 13:13:49 GMT
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Billy King
Former Jazz and Knicks GM
Rookie
Posts: 247
Oct 30, 2023 14:13:22 GMT
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Post by Billy King on Mar 1, 2019 13:37:56 GMT
to the authoritarians that hate steven adams and fun:
we, the concerned league of steven adams fanbois demand that you rate steven adams according to our wishes, which truly reflect the wishes of the league, nay the universe as a whole.
as a nonprofit group of concerned citizens, we have constantly spoken truth to power in the most important areas of life. We stand up for the small man, and in this case the big man. If you wish to be in alignment with a world-star organization that has also stood up for such riveting positions as: the earth is flat AND putting $20 in your gas tank when its half full will save you money in the long run, then let me tell you what you have to do.
1st: ignore your ratings formula, that shit is almost as wack as galileo 2nd: ignore the fact that you've already boosted his rating above what the formula gives 3rd: give him a dreb rating of 99 4th: ? ? ? 5th: have 29 other people suddenly start posting the same type of shit
thank you for considering our proposal. we know that you want to be on the right side of history, and in this case that is on the side of the,
Concerned League of Steven Adams Fanbois
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Post by Shaquille O'Neal on Mar 1, 2019 18:28:52 GMT
I rest my case, love you Walt! 😊
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Post by Charles Barkley on Mar 5, 2019 1:11:17 GMT
Adams is top 17 in Rpg while Westbrook is top 11 with 9.8 defensive rebound per game. His defensive rebounds per game are a bit low because of Westbrook stat padding every defensive rebound. Video from last year. Adams will also break his total defensive rebounds from last year. 2017-2018: 76 games with 301 total Defensive rebounds 2018-2019: 58 games with 282 total Defensive rebounds He is averaging the best season in terms of Defensive rebounds in his career. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- His DEFENSIVE rebounding is not elite. At all. 4.9 per game? Drummond pulls in 10.0 Def reb per game. He was at 10.9 last year. (the next player is averaging just 8rpg) ****He was also not even in the top 50 in defensive box out statistics which means his teammates boxes out for him to stat pad his rebounding. Embiid 11.0 (next player is averaging 9rpg) ***Actually a good rebounding player Giannis 10.3 ( He gets all the rebounds for the team, next player is averaging 5rpg) ***Brook Lopez is top 4 in Defensive Box outs with 4.3rpg which means he boxes out a lot but gives the rebound to Giannis for him to have a better stats. Derozan 5.5 Gay 5.5 ****(Aldridge is top 2 in defensive box out but only average 5.8 defensive rebound per game, why? because he gives the rebounds to this players.) If you play basketball in real life you know if you are an Elite Offensive rebounder there is no way you are a trash Defensive rebounder. He doesn't get the rebounds because he wants to stat pad Westbrook and Paul George because they are the Superstars. 60 is absurd. Your argument is based on a hypothetical situation. You can't just go out there saying that well if Adams doesn't play with Westbrook, he'd have more rebounds. You are basing things on a hypothetical cause and drawing a conclusion from that. We operate in the here and now with things we can actually measure. If Westbrook is not on that team, how many defensive rebounds does he get? 12? 10? 8? Who knows? If Devin Booker has better teammates who can score, does he average 20 a game? If James Harden played with worse players, would he score more? If I were smart, would I be rich? If people did not watch basketball, would they still play? Drawing conclusions from something like this is absolutely asinine. Extrapolate it out and our league will be in shambles. Ben Simmons doesn't shoot threes because he has JJ Redick on his team, but Ben Simmons is a good shooter, because I think so and my opinion is the only one that matters, thus Ben Simmons' three point rating needs to be an 85. Steph Curry does not play defense because he has two excellent wing defenders in Klay and Draymond, but Steph is good on defense, trust me. If Steven Adams rebounds more on defense, his rating will increase. Plain and simple. We can't draw conclusions based on things that do not exist or things that may seem to be true when in fact they are not. If this is the limb you want to stand on, you're going to fall and hurt yourself, kid. Run along now.
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